the fists at the waist thing...

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by IPON
TB - LMAO and agree 100%. The power of the punch comes from(as it is said) putting your wieight into it..this is true of any striking stlye

That is actually the description of a punch as apposed to a strike

So taking only the weight of the arm into account is BS, howmuch weight has to be taken into account depents on how good one is in putting your weight into it

at that's why the hand it pulled back to the hip/rib/armpit (depends on style) is to train the body how it feels when you put your weight behind it

[IPON]

I stand corrected, though I think we are basically saying the same thing, a reverse punch

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by kempo_jujutsu
throw a rock at a wall.....what determins the force that rock will impact the wall....the weight (mass) of the rock, not the person throwing it....multiplied by how fast that rock is moving. in other words the mass in mass x acceleration=force is the weight of the object that makes impact upon another object. i didnt say body weight was in any way irrelevant...just seperate from that equation. where the persons weight would come in is how it accelerates the rock therefore to me they are seperate pieces of the whole picture.
you dont have to agree, i was simply stating my opinion no need to say its nonsense.

It is not only nonsense, it also proves that thou art a dick head. Since when do people throw punches by taking their arm off, and throwing it at the target?

Durr Brain.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

BTW in Wado it is held inbetween the armpit and the hip and in basics depends on where you punch chudan or jodan
In Kyokushin it is pulled to the armpit

One question in relation to this, in sparring the hands are held differently from basics, that much is clear but what happens if you put safe-T kicks and Gloves on that same karateka, will his hands go up naturaly or will thet stay in the same position

Mine go up but I'm not representative for a Karateka.
Although,..... my dukes went up automaticaly when I started doing eurostyle kickboxing

What do you think and what is your own experience if you started in Karate?

[kempo_jujutsu]

noone ever said, least of all me that body weight is NOT a factor....somewhere on this thread someone used the equasion MASS X ACCELERATION=FORCE.
in MY OPINION....the MASS that is referred to in THIS EQUASION...is NOT the mass of the BODY behind the punch, yes it is a factor and a big factor and everyone will agree with that assessment....the MASS part of THAT EQUASION (mass x acceleration=force) is referring specifically to the weight of the FIST/ARM in relation to IT'S velocity, and NOT the weight and velocity of the BODY behind that arm.
you could sort of apply the same equasion "before"...as in the more your BODY weighs and the faster your BODY is moving/twisting....the more FORCE will be applied to the arm fist...thus they are connected...yet seperate as well. they are two seperate yet connected equasions if you will.
you simply dont understand what i am trying to get at.
i see no need for name calling when the forum should be about learning, not arguing and bickering.
as for MY OPINION (which i am entitled to) as for the true reason for the fist on the hip or thereabouts....read my previous post.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Oh man, back to physics, and I already had such a hard time at school

Seems I was both wrong and right the first time

I used the wrong English Term

There are 2 types of energy Potential energy PE = Force * Distance
In this case, the force is equal to your weight, which is your mass (m) * the acceleration of gravity (g), and the distance is equal to your height (h) change. So the formula can be written:

PE = mgh

And Kinetic Energy
Kinetic energy is energy of motion. Objects that are moving, such as a roller coaster, have kinetic energy (KE). If a car crashes into a wall at 5 mph, it shouldn't do much damage to the car. But if it hits the wall at 40 mph, the car will most likely be totaled.

Kinetic energy is similar to potential energy. The more the object weighs, and the faster it is moving, the more kinetic energy it has. The formula for KE is:


KE = 1/2*m*v2,
where m is the mass and v is the velocity.

What we are doing here is oversimplifying it, only taking parts into account
e.g. why do you think that rotating around the hiip is more powerfull, rotating around the center will produce a double torque
(on top of that instead of using1 musclegroup you use 2)

this complexity is the same reason why I find it hard to say if a snapkick is less powerfull, seeing tah it takes less energy to excecute a snapkick then it does to do a thaistyle kick, how hard would the snapkick be if we tranfered the same amount of energy, is it possible to transfer as much energy?

If only one thing is different, one might be able to calculate if it is more powerfull but with 2 or more it's getting to complex for us laymen ( when it comes to Physics)

[kempo_jujutsu]

what exactly do you mean by turning from the center?
is your center (tanden/dantien) not basically between the hips....therefore when you turn your hips you are turning your center. at least that is what i think of when "center" is mentioned, what are you referring to as center?
any rate, i used hips as an example, powere would actually start with your feet, legs, hips, shoulders etc...because most people just say "put your hip into it" is why i said that.

[Roland]

One thing to consider about the whole "fists at the waist thing" in Karate.

Choki Motobu was one of the Okinawans who introduced Karate to Mainland Japan (another one is, of course, Gichin Funakoshi, whose influence in modern Karate is considerable).

Motobu had a formidable reputation as a brawler, with many street fights under his belt. In fact, the reason Karate took off in Japan was after Motobu defeated a western boxer in the ring using Karate. It was reported that his favourite form of training was to go into bad neighborhoods and get into fights. Basically, here was a man who was able to apply his Karate.

He was noted for using something like a boxer's stance (hands held high - NOT at the waist). The was probably borne out of his considerable fighting experience.

He was also noted for barely being able to speak Japanese and was reportedly rough around the edges, which is probably why his style sort of faded into obscurity, whereas Funakoshi's (who spoke fluent Japanese and was cognizant of Japanese culture) influence goes without saying.

[kempo_jujutsu]

"He was noted for using something like a boxer's stance (hands held high - NOT at the waist). The was probably borne out of his considerable fighting experience."
this goes back to my post...i agree with this.
you dont fight FROM stances, you dont CHAMBER your fist on your hip when you fight. you dont BLOCK an incoming attack.
all of these are misunderstandings of kata in my opinion.
(no i am not claiming to be an expert in kata)
i think stances are transitional in nature, and teach you how to apply your body weight to help leverage in techniques, also good exercise, good for balance..etc.
i think chambers, are not chambers, they are elbows, they are grabs, and pulling motions...ie pulling your opponent into your attack, or joint locks (tuite)
i think blocks are actually attacks to pressure points on your opponents arms (thats just when they ARE used as "blocks")...the whole movement of say...a low block has many applications that are not blocks, everything from joint locks, to strikes, to combinations of both.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

this is non centered

[Toudiyama[NL]]

And this is centered

[jdg]

Hands on Hips, a different spin

I practice Kempo too, and what Kempo_Jujistu said above is my view as well.

My style is a little off the main martial arts beat, but we look at hands on hips as something entirely different than punching power. There are many ways to get at the power Karate aims toward aside from punching from hands at hips. Rotational momentum, torque, etc, are all pretty vain discussions if you are punching from the hip properly because your arms act as two seperate entities, disconnected by your body. The brute fact is that one's arms ARE attached to one's body. The arms alone canot nearly the power that a unified attack can bring; unless your torso, hips, legs, feet, and the ground below you into your punches you'll never really get your best power.

When I punch with one hand on my hip I envision grappling applications. Practicing punching like this improves my form, but also engrains in my muscles the memory to return to my hip for grappling applications. One example, the classic armbar. Someone punches, you parry and draw their attacking hand to your hip, palm up, and use your opposite arm to apply the armbar. By drawing your hand all the way to your hip you can more effectively apply this technique.

[Thai Bri]

Toudiyama - excellent diagrams. In the first one there is a whole lot more mass being thrown. In the second, more of it is being withdrawn.

Kempo - you are trapped by this brain drain thought that your arm is somehow unattached to the rest of your body. Think of this. Imaging two men, each with arms that are exactly the same mass. These men are identical in every way - speed, technique, experience etc etc. Except man number 1 has a total bodyweight of 100 kilos, yet man number 2 is only 75 kilos (their arms weight the same though).

Which will have most potential punching power, and why? Answer - man number 1, as he will have more mass to throw.

[jdg]

Thai, I don't see how Kempo's comment shows that he thinks his arms are not attached to his body. Could you explain?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Toudiyama - excellent diagrams. In the first one there is a whole lot more mass being thrown. In the second, more of it is being withdrawn.

Which will have most potential punching power, and why? Answer - man number 1, as he will have more mass to throw.

Nope wrong, because you use 2 musclegroups in the double torque, it compensates for the less bodyweight behind it

because the rotationpoint is the center, the 2 torques can be added

Also call me crazy but I think I can generate more Power by rotating the hips explosively than with the use of bodyweight

Mochizuki jr knocked the air out of big dutch judoguys ( 2m 100+ kg) by using a small hipmovement as in the second diagram....and we had 5 judokimonos folded and bind together in front of our chest, he even could do it with his arm stretched out to the side using a backfist from 10 cm in front of the bundle of kimonos

actually what you will find is that for a reverse punch the second diagram is best for oi zuki/jun zuki the first diagram is the way
And Mochzuki is a small man by our standards

compare this if you have to turn a horizontal wheel but to turn it you really have to assert power, what would you do, would you push it on one side, pull it on the other or do both?
you are allowed to use as much bodyweight as you wish when you chose pushing OR pulling