What is exactly ninjitsu???

[sojobow]

I am wondering why noone has entered a MMA tournament with a back ground of Ninjitsu/BJJ? It sounds like a very good match to me...taking into account Steve Jennum and others whom were trained by Robert Bussey. It seems that Bussey's guys are the only one's willing to enter the MMA.

Recently found out that there is a number of those with Ninjitsu background, other than the Bussey guys, currently training particpants in some MMA events. I'm not sure if you count those somewhat behind the scenes - trainers, promoters etc as "willing to enter the MMA" - however, it may be that actual fighting participants are seeking out these individuals to teach them to win. What from I can see, these trainers have multiple martial arts backgrounds (cross trainers). They combine Ninjitsu with Muay Thai, Ninjitsu with Muay Thai and Tjakai (Roy Martine's school) etc. Evidendly, only the actual fighters designate a martial art. I may have spelled Roy Martine's artform wrong but I think he has a European website.

[sojobow]

It seems that Bussey's guys are the only one's willing to enter the MMA.

On second thought, I found a related conversation with an actual MMA fighter that may be of interest (someone always flames me with a "sojobow, can you back up anything you've posted"). So, before one of Sensei Hatsumi's students jumps in with the usual, here is a third-party's take by the fighter - powerofOne:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26904&page=1&pp=15

The related info starts with powerofOne's post #14. There are 2 or 3 follow up post with additional info. Don't remember if powerofOne mentioned the name of one of the top trainers, Shihan Carins (Muay Thai/Dux Ryu). powerofOne told us that Shihan has a few fighters in these MMA events and is associated with Roy Martina, Sensei Tew et al. powerofOne may have an email address associated with his post. If none, he also posts in the Karate sections of e-budo.com and frankdux.com/duxforum. He's a much better source than myself as I'm learning a lot from him related to these MMA events. He is a Shinto Ryu (Karate)/M-Thai 4th or 5th Degree blackbelt and not a student of Dux Ryu. I am not a member of the Forum containing these Posts.

[Hikage]

No, Bloody Face, I was not referring specifically to you. I also wonder why no other Ninja than Bussey's people have ever fought. But then there are many styles which have such a huge (or slow-to-learn) curricula that very few students attain combat usefulness before they are too old for recreational fighting. That is why Shoot Boxing and Shoot Wrestling and muay Thai are huge in Japan, as well as K1 and UFC. I don't know if enrollment in the traditional arts has dropped off or not, but anyone who looks around the least bit can see where all the fighters come from, grappling, jujutsu and kickboxing or muay Thai gyms.

You know, I'm a ninjitsu guy and really could care less about "recreational fighting." I don't watch the UFC's, nor do I really pay any attention to the so called "experts" of today. The other ninjitsu people I have encountered have often expressed a similar view. We know the art works and don't need to fluff up our feathers in a boxing ring.

-Hikage

[KotoRyu]

http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/instructors.html

Shidoshi-ho Buckley is the lightweight champion from EFC 6, he used to have his record up on Sherdog.com, not very many matches but he didn't lose.

[sojobow]

You know, I'm a ninjitsu guy and really could care less about "recreational fighting." I don't watch the UFC's, nor do I really pay any attention to the so called "experts" of today. The other ninjitsu people I have encountered have often expressed a similar view. We know the art works and don't need to fluff up our feathers in a boxing ring.
-Hikage

Until recent times, I would have been one of those believing as you do. A couple good arguements I've read are: (1) participating is actually fun; (2) Its one way of making a living; (3) You aren't testing your Art. You feel your Art works well, but you're not testing your art, you're testing yourself; (4) Do you REALLY KNOW your art works. I thought BJJ and Grappling was ineffective in real life combat. I was wrong.

I think all serious martial artist should try it at least once.

[jubaji]

The other ninjitsu people I have encountered have often expressed a similar view. We know the art works

................................

How?

[jubaji]

We don't need to fluff up our feathers in a boxing ring.

-Hikage

Is that what you think boxers are doing in the ring?

[Broadsword2004]

Well I don't care if one doesn't care for recreational fighting, but don't be one of those who walks around, saying you look down on stuff like the UFC and all that, meanwhile you "know" your art works, yada yada......don't go acting like some wise Jedi knight who's been around for years or something.

One doesn't need to dish on recreational fighting to have real fighting skills. Sparring and such is great fun, even if you know in reality you'd use much meaner moves.

Martial sports make one into a very superb athlete. UFC fighters I am sure are some of the best conditioned athletes out there.

[Hikage]

Hikage,
It may be tough to imagine, but some of us get in the ring because we really enjoy the sport. One of the side benefits to it is that we learn a lot about what works and what doesn't, and we learn to separate theory and gym wisdom from application and practice. But no one I train with is under any illusions about boxing being the end-all fighting system either. That's something only martial artists worry about. Boxers, in general, like to box. They compete, they don't "fight." And what's more, we don't do it wondering whether or not a wrestler or a Tae kwon Do guy or even a Ninja could kick our asses in the street. Again, that preoccupation is the domain of the insecure. We know why we do what we do, and the ring happens to be our expression of it. There's no feather fluffing involved.

I have no problems with any of this. It's not that I think you guys are doing anything wrong, what I am telling you is that I, and number of others like me (I cannot speak for all ninjitsu stylists) just really don't care about the fame and fortune of the UFC ring.

I don't mean to disrespect, but it's wrong to insinuate that people who want proof and seek it through application are being pretentious or close-minded.

But those in UFC are closing their minds. How many techniques/moves are now banned from UFC? Why do they now wear gloves? If they really wanted an accurate assessment, then it would be a normal streetbrawl, with as few rules as possible. In all truth, some of the ninjitsu techniques on which we often rely are baned (eye gouges, fish hooks, to name a few).

Is that what you think boxers are doing in the ring?

No, I was drawing a sarcastic allusion to the rules and stipulations placed on those who enter the octagon.

And in referrence to how I know the art works, it has been field tested. Some of us have been prison guards, some of us have worked as bouncers. We have trained police and body guards and have been asked to return. When i say we, I refer to myself, the local dojo, and to those whom I know, not the mythical "them." I have seen it's effectiveness firsthand against agressive, non-participative, opponents. Street-brawlers, not just sparring partners.

I suppose I came across as if I was bashing UFC, and that was not my intention. If someone is competitive, and wants to put their skills to the test in a controlled environment, where there is some measure of safeguard for the participants, then UFC is an excellent location and I have nothin against those who are willing to do so. Personally, I have no doubts about what I do. I know the art's weaknesses I know it's strengths pretty well. There is always more to learn, that's why I continue to train day and in day out.

-Hikage

[bbbb]

Good, encouraging, advice...

I too have served in the trenches. I worked as a bouncer for eight years everywhere from LA to Colorado Springs. I was the Head of Security at my area's biggest County Emergency Room, and we dealt with combative drunks, convicts, and psychotics all the time. I have worked armed and unarmed security, been in several knife encounters, shootings, and mass brawls. I was a Special Operations soldier and I was given several commendations for the quality and effectiveness of the hand-to-hand combatives programs I developed and taught to some of our guys. Not to mention spending many years as a misguided youth that had a penchant for getting into fights. I have tested my art in all of the arenas you mention, and I'm about ot admit something that may surprise everyone:

Streetfighting is far easier than ring fighting.

In every streetfight I've ever been in, win or lose, it happened FAST. It came on quick (even in those instances when you expect it all night long), and it was usually over even quicker. Injuries weren't felt (I can attest to never having felt a single one of the four separate knife wounds I've received in real-world encounters), and responses were not clean. Endurance was rarely a factor, and mental conditioning proved far greater an asset than physical conditioning. Staying calm meant winning far more often than did physical fitness.

Ring fighting, on the other hand, pits two well conditioned athletes with weeks - even months - to prepare in the ring under equal circumstances. There are no tricks, there are no surprises, and there are no escape routes. The rules that are in place are partly for the safety of the fighters, but they are largely for the prolonging of the bout, and the accompanying pleasure of the spectators. Regardless of how impotent one believes the rules make to art, the fight is tougher inside the ropes than it ever has been outside, until you breach the line between streetfighting and warfighting. Despite your confidence in your art, I would encourage you to go train with some competitors and see what they have to offer. No egos, no disrespect. Just training. I'd be willing to bet you'd find it "enlightening."

I know you're right...so I must if I really want to make thing's work.

M.A. may give you confidence...but the Truth remain's the same!!

thanx for the head's up man!

[Hikage]

MB,

Good post. Thoughtful.

-Hikage

[Bloody Face]

Ring fighting, on the other hand, pits two well conditioned athletes with weeks - even months - to prepare in the ring under equal circumstances. There are no tricks, there are no surprises, and there are no escape routes. The rules that are in place are partly for the safety of the fighters, but they are largely for the prolonging of the bout, and the accompanying pleasure of the spectators. Regardless of how impotent one believes the rules make to art, the fight is tougher inside the ropes than it ever has been outside, until you breach the line between streetfighting and warfighting. Despite your confidence in your art, I would encourage you to go train with some competitors and see what they have to offer. No egos, no disrespect. Just training. I'd be willing to bet you'd find it "enlightening."

My thoughts are similar yet I have to admit that after being attacked by ten to fifteen guys one night and another at least two, empirical knowledge would seem to dictate that there were definite advantages to myself having a western boxing and limited Ninjutsu background that might not equal much in an arena fight.

I cannot help but to notice that in enivronments such as the street there are no rules and that would most definitely be advantageous to a person skilled in Ninjutsu where in a moderately yet still controlled setting such as competitive arena environments Ninjutsu is at a definite disadvantage where pressure points, groin punching, weapons, and locks are not allowed.

[Broadsword2004]

Hey Mike Brewer, just wondering, which Special Operations were you a soldier in (Rangers, Special Forces, SEALS, Air Force Pararescue, etc...)??

[Bloody Face]

I too have been in situations that involved skills TOTALLY unlike the ring. And you're right in saying that the "no-rules" end of the fighting spectrum involves a whole other skill and mindset. When faced with multiple attackers, I have to say I tend to fight only so long as the exit is blocked, and while my ring experience is far more limited than my street experience, I've not had anyone pull a knife or gun on me between the ropes.

My point was not to discredit any of the more "reality-based" arts. Rather, it was to shed some light on the benefits of sport fighting as far as teaching one how to deal with stress, fear, and a gap in skill or ability. If I didn't say it before, I was remiss, but in most streetfights I've been in, things happened too quickly for fear and panic to be much of a factor. Several times, I simply moved and hit whatever and wherever available. But in the ring, you face your demons differently. The fear has weeks to work on you, and doubts arise that you cannot shake until the final bell rings. It's not real fighting by any stretch. It's not as dangerous, nor are the stakes anywhere near as high. In a way, that's what makes it so valueable a training tool. Something tougher than the real thing that doesn't carry the life or death risks?! BRILLIANT!

Most definitely, I agree...my point was that maybe Ninjitsu(Ninjutsu) is better suited to a street fight than any other situation.

[KotoRyu]

Most definitely, I agree...my point was that maybe Ninjitsu(Ninjutsu) is better suited to a street fight than any other situation.

Probably because we're all a bunch of cheaters