What is exactly ninjitsu???

[ShadowHander]

Ok, ok, there seems to be a lot of fuss over the existance of ninjutsu.

First off, I cannot prove or disprove any more then anybody else the existence of ninjutsu in historical time periods. This is a pointless arguement.

Secondly, I'd like to point out that it does indeed exist now. Ninjutsu is not as recent as some arts like JKD, however, it is not some cheesy movie display. You cannot do the following things with the current practiced ninjutsu:

Get sliced in half, only to have your corpse turn into a log and you reappear somewhere else.
Teleport. No. You can't.
Anything else such as using hand seals to throw fireballs or summon a 10 foot snake. This does not happen.

What ninjutsu can do for you.

Teach you how to be rather stealthy (Modern ninjutsu practicioners are known to study not only physical aspects of an opponent but also know how the eyes, ears, and mind work. It is taught how to disguise shillouettes, attack from blind spots, work around an opponents natural range of sight).
Teach you some lethal moves to use in combat.
Train you in some unique weapons (Not specifically unique to the style, though... weapons include shuriken, kusari-gama, shoku climbing claws, etc


Now, I can't vouch for the validity of the history, but the current world of ninjutsu is very real. Most dojo's teach a Taijutsu/Bujinkan Ninjutsu curriculum. But I reccomend studying multiple arts, to answer your main question. Not just eastern arts, study all sorts of styles.

[m.artist]

If "you" cannot read well enough to understand, then "you" have a problem. "You" should worry about "you" first.

As for my obligation to live up to "your" subjective determination as to what is and is not a valuable enough 'insight', "you" can go blow "yourself".

"You" got it?

I did read well enough to understand, and what i read was one big insult from "u"(a person would be a "you", i don't know what "u"are) and i do worry about me, but when i see someone telling someone else off due to their ignorance, then that pisses me off. and by "ur" last post, "u" just proved my point exactly. so "u" use all the big words "u" want, but in the end, it's how "u" react to others that let's us know, how "u" really are.
"u" got it?

[jubaji]

I did read well enough to understand, and what i read was one big insult from "u"(a person would be a "you", i don't know what "u"are) and i do worry about me, but when i see someone telling someone else off due to their ignorance, then that pisses me off. and by "ur" last post, "u" just proved my point exactly. so "u" use all the big words "u" want, but in the end, it's how "u" react to others that let's us know, how "u" really are.
"u" got it?

It took you a month to formulate that response? Public school is really dropping the ball.

"Big words"?!

[m.artist]

It took you a month to formulate that response? Public school is really dropping the ball.

"Big words"?!

sure did. u know how public school are nowadays
dude. it wasn't worth my time reading ur post. i just finally saw it, and said "im gonna say something now" so i did.
plz, don't flatter urself

[jubaji]

:
dude. it wasn't worth my time reading ur post. i just finally saw it, and said "im gonna say something now" so i did.
-

What a fascinating story!

[m.artist]

What a fascinating story!

what a loser!

[Hikage]

No one likes to bring an old post from the grave, but I'm going to do it anyway.

Shadowhander, I appreciate your attempts to defend ninjitsu, however I feel you should have chosen your words more carefully and you have indirectly aided the other side, which is why no one responded to it.

Let me set the record straight.

Ok, ok, there seems to be a lot of fuss over the existance of ninjutsu.

First off, I cannot prove or disprove any more then anybody else the existence of ninjutsu in historical time periods. This is a pointless arguement.

Secondly, I'd like to point out that it does indeed exist now. Ninjutsu is not as recent as some arts like JKD, however, it is not some cheesy movie display. You cannot do the following things with the current practiced ninjutsu:

Get sliced in half, only to have your corpse turn into a log and you reappear somewhere else.
Teleport. No. You can't.
Anything else such as using hand seals to throw fireballs or summon a 10 foot snake. This does not happen.

true.. agreed.

What ninjutsu can do for you.

Teach you how to be rather stealthy (Modern ninjutsu practicioners are known to study not only physical aspects of an opponent but also know how the eyes, ears, and mind work. It is taught how to disguise shillouettes, attack from blind spots, work around an opponents natural range of sight).

This is where you begin to fall apart. I don't understand why people are fixated on this idea that ninjitsu is all smoke and mirrors. Yes, the ninjas are very adept at attacking an opponent's weaknesses. They understand light and darkness. They understand how to manipulate the body of their opponent. But this is hardly the backbone of ninjitsu doctrine. I get so bent out of shape when people become obsessed with reading the books on ninjitsu which write about only the "mystical" side of ninjitsu, when in reality this aspect is considerably small. More often than not, a ninjitsu "sensei" who teaches anything contrary to this bought their liscence from a cracker jack box and is covering for their absence of technique by trying to wow you with stuff that doesn't really matter.

Teach you some lethal moves to use in combat.
Train you in some unique weapons (Not specifically unique to the style, though... weapons include shuriken, kusari-gama, shoku climbing claws, etc

SOME lethal moves? SOME unique weapons? I don't know which ninjitsu you are taking. The "jitsu" in ninjtsu means "war art." The idea that there are only SOME lethal moves is laughable completely undermines the seperation between this art and those who practice sport. Nintjisu was and (when taught correctly) is still an art for warriors, not for the light hearted who simply want to stay in shape. ALL the techniques in ninjitsu (of which there is a limitless number) are designed to achieve nothing short of complete victory in combat.

Like all martial arts, ninjitsu is an art form, which means you need to be an artist to correctly advance in this art. You cannot simply do pre-scripted techniques in ninjitsu because it won't work. The ninjtsu stylist is (or at least should be) taught how to figuretively cook for themselves. One studies the basics and acquires an understanding of how the average body works when put into certain locks, when struck in a certain fashion, etc. Upon attainment of black belt, the stylist is encouraged to "play." In this way the stylist will learn how to make the art work for themselves. I am 5'8, barely. My instructor is 6'2. We CANNOT possibly move in the same fashion and make the same techniques work in the identical style.

Because of the ninjitsu stylist's heavy study in this "self-discovery" method of learning to create effective varations, they soon discover that there is no limit to the number of techniques they now possess. Whereas in other arts, we see instructors dropping out after 20-30 years because they "know it all." A ninjitsu stylist never stops learning. Not to sound conceited, but I have found in the way of self-defense (not kata, not sparring) I know more than most other instructors in other arts, once again we're only talking self-defense. Becuase I have played with strikes and locks, I understand in great detail what happens when I strike my man. What EXACTLY will happen to his body, and all body types. What happens on this inside, to his organs and blood flow? I know what strike to use where. How to effectly rip with my strikes, as opposed to merely punching. How to punch on the way back. What happens when I slap, poke, pinch, a man in the space underneath his pecs, above his pecs, the stomach, the space under the breast bone, the lower back, the shoulders. All of these have a different impact. How do I attack the back? What about pressure points? Which strikes work best on which pressure points and which pressure points are most available on different ethnicities. What about times of the day? Which points are vulnerable in the morning, afternoon, evening, middle of the night? How to heal these points. One cannot just be a hurter. Complete the circle, the yin AND the yang. Learn how to heal the body, especially your own. Everyone gets hit, no one comes out unscathed.

The story is teh same for weapons. We do not study merely SOME exotic weapons. We study ALL weapons. Once again, the philo is that you study the basics of the basic weapons. The angles, teh takedowns, the throws, the strikes, blocks, where, when and how to hit certain points, the list goes on. Once you understant these basics of weapons, you begin to fill in the gaps. For example, we study the philipino stick. We also study the hanbo. For a black belt test, I made one student defend himself with an oversized wooden spoon that was the length perfectly between the 2 aforementioned sticks. After he demonstrated teh ability to use this oddity, I placed a boat oar into his hands. He shook his bewildered head at me, but again, showed a remarkable adaptibility with this as well. Concept is, no matter what you pick up, shirt, bottle, keyboard, telephone, stuffed animal, you should be able to effectively use it. Can not many things be used as a chair? Does it have to have 4 legs and a back in order for you to sit on it? Can't you sit on a rock, a chest, a stool, a swing, another person? Use your imagination and the martial arts world opens wide.

My whole point in saying all this is once again: The idea that ninjitsu teaches only SOME techniques is demonstration of either a (which is the most likely in this case as I imagine that it was not your intention to insult ninjitsu) lack of full thought into what you were saying, or a serious misteaching that you have recieve in which case you need to find a new sensei.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... any ninjitsu sensei who does not ground EVERYTHING he teaches in the kihon happo (fundamentals) and the study of angles does not know what they are talking about. Run from this person. Ninjitsu is a rich man's art. I was fortunate enough to find someone who is not concerned about money. But there are many people out there who "buy" their certifications and lie to their students. This is the reason why we have so many people on this board who do not believe in ninjitsu. However, rest assured, the real thing is out there, but they don't advertise.

<stepping off soap box>

-Hikage

[m.artist]

that post was welcomed with an open mind. good post my friend. i wish there was a ninjutsu school in dallas. or is there? can anyone help me out there?

[jubaji]

ALL the techniques in ninjitsu (of which there is a limitless number) are designed to achieve nothing short of complete victory in combat.

Like the no-touch KI attack?

[m.artist]

here we go again....

[IPON]

Concept is, no matter what you pick up, shirt, bottle, keyboard, telephone, stuffed animal, you should be able to effectively use it.

Good Post!!!! I agree with this concept of weapons traings in general for MA. I think it is interesting that weapons are devalued so much in MAs with the linear thinking "well I can't walk around with a sword so why should I train with it". It is very clear as you have stated the point is not about the specifics of one weapon but rather the concepts of using weapons and how those movements may translate in to common objects. Also, the benefits to not only the tori but the uke. The damage that can be done merely with a phone reciver or rolled magazine is amazing, but these are simply the movements of a dan bong or yawara bo.

From your experience travels do you see a decrease in desire for wepons training? From my perspective I feel it should be maintained if nothing more than tradition, but obviously the issue is more than tradition

[Hikage]

From your experience travels do you see a decrease in desire for wepons training? From my perspective I feel it should be maintained if nothing more than tradition, but obviously the issue is more than tradition

Experience travels? You make me out to be some kind of master. I'm not that old and I haven't traveled all to far.

In all truth and seriousness, I suppose I'm pretty sheltered in terms of the amount of other martial artists who study weapons. Most whom I have encoutered studied little more than basic defenses against knives and other basic items found in bars, not how to employ them. Those who do know, know little more than basic strikes, which doesn't amount to much in the way of self-defense.

However, I used to teach at a university (not as a prof, but in the MA club as a sensei) and I saw what other classes were doing and can only assume it's the norm. I wouldn't say that the desire is decreased, rather shifted. People study the proper angles of attack and striking methods but seem to rarely use them in practice for combat, instead for the tourny ring. This breeds a martial artist who can spin a sword really fast and twirl a stick behind his back while flipping backwards. Unfortunately, this man or woman will have a hard time effectively using any of that weapons knowledge against a true opponent seeing as most know few, if any, fundamentals on the level of self-defense. Perhaps someone can confirm if this is the norm?

For the humor of it: I witnessed a black belt test for a student in american karate. The student was good, full of devotion and intensity. His sensei was much the same way, but with a augmented level of arrogance. This student's test was more to show off for the sensei's superiors (who were present) than for the student. During the segment on the philipino stick, the student was asked by the sensei "What are the parts of the stick."
Never really having been asked before, the student seemed to guess as he replied "uhh, Butt, shaft and tip?"
No joke, sensei asks "which is which?" to which the student correctly responded shaking his head in disbelief.
honest to God, true story.

Homework: What's the oddest thing you can think of to use as a weapon and how might u employ it?

-Hikage

[jubaji]

However, I used to teach at a university (not as a prof, but in the MA club as a sensei)

Tokyo University?

[ShadowsOfGordon]

I wish to learn Ninjitsu

Is there any possible way to study at a ninja school

[m.artist]

http://www.khninjas.com/instructors.htm#oakley