Fifth range of Combat (Projectile Weapons)

[wong sheung]

I was just curious, How many of you train with firearms. I call this the fifth range of combat. I further believe that it can be broken down to five subsets.
1. Shotgun (out to 15 feet)
2. Handgun (out to 50 feet)
3. Carbine (out to 300 feet)
4. Battle Rifle (out to 500 feet)
5. Precision shooting (out to 1,000 feet)
I have recently gotten back into shooting. I currently train with my 1. 870 Remington 20" with 8 round magazine.
2. Sig 220
3. Mini-30
4. HK 91
5. Soon to get a Remington 700.
I am also planning on getting my wife a glock 23. My Sig's recoil is too much for her, but I don't like the stopping ability of a 9. She also has small hands (being only 5'3 100 lbs.) What do you guys think?

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

I think as JKD goes, your taking it waaaaaaaaaay far. But at least your prepared.

[Kevin]

Way to far?

I don't think so.
Martial Arts = War Arts
If we want to keep our martial art current, we shouldn't ommit this "range" of combat. I think that today's martial art should encompass alot more than the "traditional martial arts" offer...not only should they include projectiles, basic first aid, some basic survival skills, and the often neglected mental component of self defense (Check out Tony Blauer, Geoff Thompson, Marc MacYoung. Two good books... Strong on Defense, and The Truth About Self Protection by Mas Ayoob).

I'm not really heavy into shooting, but I do own a .357 and a 12ga.

How much you want delve into the differant ares of self protection/survival is a persoanl decision... but IMO you should have at least a basic understanding.

That's my take on it.... you mileage may vary.

~Kev
"This is my rifle... this is my gun. This one's for fighting... this one's for fun."

[Maxximus]

I can put a round through a flea's a$$ at a hundred meters!

[Chad W. Getz]

The warriors of old days used bows & arrows and spears, today one should be educatd in the use and function of a gun. What if you get an attacker's gun and don't even know what a safety is or looks like, let alone these not even being in your thought because you pulled the trigger and nothing happenned? Awareness should at least be a part of your current day MA training if this is why you train.

[Evilution]

I agree with Chad and Kevin. You should be functional with the basic types of guns. You should at least know how to use the above mentioned shotgun,pistol,carbine,battle rifle and long range rifle. You don't have to be able to do it well but you should be able to at least fire and handle them safely. I don't have the time or money to get into guns as much as I'd like right now but I down own a 12 ga and a sig 40 cal. pistol.

[Underdog]

Underdog: the ultimate handgun freak

Pistols: Glock 26 9mm rebuilt and customized; glades gunworks custom 1911 9mm (21 rds mags) NAA mini revolver 22lr; keltec P32 32acp; glock 34 9mm; wilson combat 1911 45acp.

Shotguns: Mossberg 590 custom built by scattergun technologies; beretta 1201 fp custom by R.Dellera

Rifles: Olympic arms ar15 (XM177) 223
Steryr ssg police 308

I train once a week; mainly with handguns; I've beaten to death 10 glocks since my first ccw; usually my training is:

100 rounds VERY slow fire; to reinforce the basics and to keep accuracy on hand (up to 50 yds distance). Then more or less 400 round with various exercises depending on the moment mood or to work on weak points.

With the shotgun is mostly self defence drills and house clearing drills.

Rifle work is boring as shit but it really teaches you discipline and patience.

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Your all freaks, ALL of ya!

Im just kidding, and the arguements that you need a basic understanding on firearms is valid and well taken, I understand your viewpoints now. Im still in that NHB forum mode and was in MMA and MA for sport fighting and one on one weaponless confrontations, so please forgive my limited mindset, I never really focused on weapon, gun and "dirty tricks" for the street.

My dream gun is the Heckler and Koch Mark 23.

[Danny T]

Hi

I do train with firearms and make my family practice also.
For everyday I carry a Glock 27 (40), but I like my Springfield 1911(45) much more. It is simply to large for my work to carry. My wife carries a S&W J36 (38 special) and is quite proficient with it up to 25 yards. My two sons use a Glock 22(40) and a Ruger P94 (9mm). We have several other "toys" through out the house just in case.
I do feel you must practice with whatever you are going to use in an extremely high stress situation in order to become proficient. I have them ,at least once a month, drill on coming out of bed, draw and cover, call out. We all have code names and answer only to them. I know this may seem extreme to some but I want my family to be able to protect themselves and each other without the added worry of where are the others and how do we know. The mental aspect is something that must also be understood. When to use a firearm and where. I know many people who carry firearms or have them in their homes for protection but when I speak of understanding the fields of fire and why a particular ballistic over another they are simply lost. We want to stop a perp but don't want to hurt a family member or friend due to inapproprate fire. Or, to have hit the perp only to have the round go on through and strike someone behind them.

Danny T

[Type-GRR]

You forgot one other subdivision . . .

BLOWDARTS!!!!

[wong sheung]

Gotta love the toys!

To those who have bought products from Bill Wilson, "Are they worth the extra cash?" How much better is a Wilson or Springfield custom over a Kimber? To those who have Glocks, how do you think they compare with Sigs? I am a Sig Guy, but my wife can't comfortably hold double stacks. (Her hands are too small for the grip). I was looking at Glock 23's, being that in the People's Republic of Hawaii, where you are limited to only ten rounds that this pistol would fit her perfectly. What are y'alls opinions.

[Underdog]

I have an early '90 wilson '45, and it'done flawlessy, but mind you, back then good ole Bill worked himself at the shop. Right now I would be perfectly satisfied with a kimber at a quarter of the price.

As for the glocks, I cannot praise them too much. In my view they are the best REACTIVE weapons in business. You simply cannot beat easiness of trigger manipulation, low bore axis and the shock-absorbing properties of polymer.

The sigs gets the nod in the accuracy department, by a large margin, but they are heavier, bulkier, WAY more difficult to operate.

Keep in mind one thing if you are issuing a glock to your wife: get a medium sized one, and in 9mm; the forthies are prone to recoil too much for the average woman; also the subcompacts 26&27 are too much short on barrel: way too muzzle flip. A happy medium would be a 19 stuffed with REDUCED POWER 9mm.

Remember clearly: the real stopping power comes when you hit what you are aiming for.

[wong sheung]

Wyatt Earp, gunfighter.

Wyatt, you sound very informed. My wife can not handle my Sig even with my Harts recoil system. I was thinking of a .40 because of all the evidence of the ineffectiveness of the 9mm. I live in Hawaii, and six years ago, a motorcycle cop got into a firefight with someone in a rough town called Waipahu. The officer hit the perp 33 times with his S&W 9mm. He was hiding behind his downed motorcycle, and was hit 17 times by a MAK 90 in .223. He survived. When the perp was finally hit in the head, he died. I would hate to be put in that same position. Like I said earlier, the peoples republic of Hawaii only allows us 10 rounds, I was hoping a Harts system in a Glock 23 would bring the recoil to 9mm levels. Oh, by the way, my wife has shot a 9, her friends Beretta 92f, other than the grip width, it was okay for her. Any advice would be great. Mahalo.

[Underdog]

My name is Underdog! (lol..)

One of the worst misconception in weapon self defence is the topic of stopping power. I assure you that you cannot make up poor shot placement with better bullets; here in italy we are confined to non hollowpoints bullets, and tha sucks bigtime. I have done a makeshift glaser bullet using a fmj 9mm 147 grains bullet, melting ot lead and using plastic inside. With a stiff charge in it I can send a 42 grain bullet at 2000 fps. It has stopping power by virtue of hydrostatic shock/temporary cavity wound. Better of all, it has meaningless recoil (recoil is a factor determined, among others, by bullet weight). You may also keep in mind that te dynamics opf confrontation between a police officer and a citizen are way different. As armed citizen, you response with a handgun must be that you open fire with the precise intent to cover your retret/escape toward a safe zone. I assure you that if you have on hand sound tactics and a lesser gun you will prevail. If I may get you a final hint, send your wife to Masaad Ayoob's LETHAL FORCE INSTITUTE. The guy is the leading world authority on the defensive handgun, and it has an eye toward covering your axx legally also, it may be you best spent money for self defense.

In the mean time, peace.

But with firepower on reserve...

[Chad W. Getz]

Wong Sheung, Masaad Ayoob was in Hawaii and hosted a seminar out of Magnum's, if I'm not mistakin'. Did you make it to that? Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance, maybe they have another visit planned for the near future.