Sammy Franco's Widowmaker

[kengar]

Well, YOU can't be Sammy Franco Thats for sure!

fuckin' funny aren't you! (edited: laughed my ass off)

Hey, thanks for the honesty guys. Like I said, didn't want to start a war, just looking to spend the money the best way.

[Power]

So what's the verdict, Shredder of Widowmaker? I don't want to pit people against each other, I'm sure they're both great products. I've heard great things about he Shredder, very good about the Widowmaker, but the Widowmaker comes on DVD and that is a big plus.

Almost like a case of chicken or the egg. What I do know is that Razing is based on The Shredder and that the Shredder is almost completely conceptual...

Expert Gross Motor Skills are NOTHING TO DO with fine motor skills. It always makes me giggle when a self professed expert goes a bluff too far. You tripped yourself up good style over this one. You'd better delete this quick before your army of ass kissers begin to see that their Emperror is naked.

C'mon Thai Bri, tell us how you really feel.

[brokenelbow]

What about a professional boxer? Or a professional race car driver? A military sniper? How about the NFL quarterback who is rushed by a wall of men traying to kill him every Sunday afternoon? Regardless of the threat, these professionals use fine motor skill mechanics under tremendous threat and pressure. So why can't you?

One thing Franco fails to note is that these are very special people, elites of their fields. How many people try to be a fighter pilot, an NFL quarterback or a boxer and don't make the cut. Snipers? Very few have the combined skills and temperment to become one. Franco is on some very thin ice with that way of thinking.


Crap, I'm agreeing with Bitty again.

[Rashid]

yeah

Someone should also point out that when two pro boxers get into a real fight it looks nothing like boxing anymore either and all their fine motor skills seem to disapear. It looks more like a school yard brawl with clinching and wild swinging.

An NFL quarterback is not rushed by people trying to kill him either. He's still under the protection of rules, safety equipment and more. These examples are total bogus and way off the mark! Are you sure Franco wrote this and wasn't impersonated by some moron?

[Drew Howe]

[Rashid]

worse

Its worse than that. Check out the link Bri provided. Someone went on there and disagreed without flaming and brought up some good points and Franco's reply was something like "I won't even dignify that with a response!" and he locked the thread up. Something strikes me as real contradictive about this though. I have the shredder package (I highly recommend btw) and I know Dimitri stresses on it and on his site that the shredder is a "barrage of gross motor skills" making it so efficient and easy to apply by anyone and from what I saw, Franco's razing is a copy of Dimitri's shredder (right down to copying Dimitri by saying the manual has to be read first) So isn't razing by definition gross motor then? Doesn't that contradict his whole fine motor skill theory? Franco also stresses in his widowmaker DVD that he doesn't believe in reflexive response training and that it is bullshit yet on his webpage here http://www.sammyfranco.com/whatweteach.html scroll down to the R section and what do you see? Reflex Response training. WTF?

[Drew Howe]

Re: worse

[Ryu (JKD?)]

To me honestly,

It sounds like a misunderstanding of semantics. From what I read I think he might mean that refined tools (i.e. crisp jab/cross combo, etc.) can be pulled off in reality by someone who has constantly worked his attributes, whereas the "untrained" man will simply flail wildly.

I think none would disagree that "wild flailing" is not something to strive for in self defense.

Seems to be a semantic problem in the definitions of what "gross motor skills" and "fine motor skills" mean.

If you're curious you should ask him yourself.

Ryu

[ryanhall]

Woah, guys. I can understand where you're all coming from, but a few of you are pretty quick to jump all over Sammy. Rashid, you are, more often than not, extolling the virtues of CFA/Senshido, and you're pretty quick to rip on him now. Why?

I'm not saying that you guys don't have a point or a reason to gripe, but I would recommend taking your concerns to Sammy or at the very least holding intelligent debate here. Though I can agree that it seems he doesn't really like to explain himself,

I'm not kissing ass or defending anyone. I am simply asking that you try to be intelligent about this rather than making off the cuff remarks. Everybody here knows that I have been associated with CFA. However, this is not the reason that I am posting. I would be very disappointed if Sammy would just dismiss everything that you have to say. However, it seems like you're arguing semantics (whether you are or not).

The line between fine and gross motor skills is very blurry, and I have seen debates over this before.

I think that the truth lies in the biology. At certain elevated heart rates, your ability to function in a precice manner deteriorates. In some situations, fine-motor skills will be available to you, in some cases they won't. Nobody can argue that one. Situations in which you are able to remain more calm (either because you know that you aren't in serious danger or because you simply have a high degree of self-control) may afford you the ability to retain fine-motor movements. When you are greatly surprised or are experiencing a high level of fear, you probably won't have the fine-motor skills available. I have experienced both situations, as I'm sure that most of you have (whether you had to fight or not, you are able to tell how your body is functioning at the time if you are honest with yourself--a lot of strategy and training goes out the window in certain situations).

In one situations, I was tripped and thrown to the ground from behind by someone I didn't know was there. I wasn't thinking clinch, knee, knee, elbow, uppercut. I just ended up on all fours, moved forwards to get a leg, and put a nasty o soto gari on the guy that landed him on the back of his head. Didn't think of anything other than how pissed and surprised I was. Grabbed the leg and threw the guy as hard as I could to the ground.

I've also had situations that I saw coming and was able to de-escalate while remaining in complete control. Confidence obviously plays a major role here, as your level of faith in your ability to handle yourself will greatly impact your level of fear/stress.

I don't think that I would have had very good motor control in either situation when compared to a resting state of precise movement control, but I did retain what most people would consider 'fine' movement. Not fine enough to wrist lock somebody, but plenty fine to throw a combination hammerfist them in the nose and elbow them a few times.

Bri,
I'm not deleting anything. You have every right to post what you did, and your argument is completely legitimate. You do come across as pretty condescending, but then again, so does Sammy every now and then in regards to questions on his forum. I think that some of your message is lost in the tone, but you make completely legitimate points.

However, one could also make the argument that all of those athletes (boxers, race car drivers, quarterbacks, etc.) are using fine motor skills that are honed to a very high level both physically and psychologically. Meaning that the athlete (I use that term very loosely for anyone who drives anything other than a bike) has experienced enough high-pressure situations that they are able to overcome their 'nerves' and use the fine-motor skills that they have developed.

I can personally comment from many years of playing baseball that the biggest thing to overcome at bat (after you actually had the skills) was nerves. Being an average sized guy who is/was able to hit the ball like most people half again my size, I was an extremely technical hitter (perfect timing, weight trainsfer, hand positioning, etc.). If everything wasn't working just right, I wasn't on my game and things probably weren't going to go well for me. Things only started to work out consistently for me after I got over the butterflies that came with high-pressure situations. While it may seem obvious, it is a valuable thing to remember.

Important to note, though, is that it takes any athlete quite a while to play to their potential in a pressure situation. You might not feel the pressure until you're playing for the championship, but you will feel it sometime. That's when experience comes in--it keeps you calm, in control, and able to function to your highest level. If you don't have it, you might fold. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the 'luxury' of getting into real fights and emerging unscathed five hundred times. Therefore, we won't ever truly get over the nerves (if you ever can) that fighing produces. So should we rely on fine-motor skills that are predicated on a high degree of training, confidence, concentration, and personal control? Probably not.

How about a question to parallel this debate: what separates fine-motor and gross-motor skills?

I'd say that if it requires a high degree of timing, precision, and skill to pull off, it's fine-motor. Gross-motor would be full-body movements that involve large muscle groups and do not require perfect timing. Still, nothing works without the proper timing, so what exactly is the proper definition? I look forward to hearing your responses.

[Thai Bri]

Hi Ryan.

You know I have a passion for fighting arts, but joke around when I think people are talking shit. I hesitated on posting this, as I know you've trained with the guy and I value your own contribution to my development. You're the one who pointed the way to the Shredder for me after all. I'd never heard of Senshido before that.

But I cannot take things to Franco, because he is too arrogant. If he can't see any value for himself in someone, he is not interested in talking..

Tell you what. Invite him to the thread to explain for himself this shite about Jet Pilots and Knife Fighters. This can be a kind of neutral ground. We all know that, on his own turf, all he'll do is lock and/or delete the thread.

Of course he could kick my ass in a real go. I'm not disputing that. But he's taking money off Defend.Net forum members, so let them all see what he is made of.

By the way, prepare him for a verbal mauling. He has seriously pissed me off, and I don't think he can take my intellect on. Do you? Does he? I bet he thinks he can.

Bring it on Franco. You need taking down a peg or two. Who knows? I might give you some ideas to copy and claim as your'e own.

[Drew Howe]

[Rashid]

come on

Have you looked at his forum recently? I've tried and so have countless others asking questions and we're met with either buy the tape or some rude comment like Franco has no time to waste on such petty questions. Give me a break. Look at thread in question Ryan. Someone went on and posted a reply which was neither rude or challenging and was met with Franco not dignifying his response and locking the thread up. So your advice of taking it up with Franco himself is out. Here's what happens to people who ask questions on his forum: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/...&lp=1066493660 and http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/...&lp=1065641534 and there are countless more so go ask him yourself since he'll probably answer you since you give him money for services or products, it seems the rest of the world isn't worthy of his time without payment.

This is not a semantics misunderstanding and everyone here including you knows it. I understand your devotion but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is generally a duck. You cannot compare a sport like the NFL or baseball or boxing to a life threatening situation. Reread his post again. It's not about low level threat versus high level threat. Franco wrote and I quote "IMHO gross motor skill movements are the "default response" of the untrained fighter. Frankly, I think its a "cop out" response for anyone who doesn't want to take the time to master self-defense." So what does he constitue as self-defence? A school yard brawl? You're going to tell me that a knife fight requires fine motor skills as he plainly suggests in that thread? If you do I've lost all respect for you becuase you're protecting bullshite over truth due to loyalty and don't give me the I'm not loyal to cfa crap cause it is a bunch of bull.

[kengar]

Ryan
Not fine enough to wrist lock somebody, but plenty fine to throw a combination hammerfist them in the nose and elbow them a few times.

'In my head', fine motor skills will envolve a higher level of brain function and interaction. That's why we focus so much on gross motor, because when are shocked with a dangerous situation our brains start to shut down so nature response and instinct will kick in. I do agree with you that the line between the two can be blurry.

Police officers, do they use fine motor skills when in a car chase and when restraining a suspect? In the chase they must drive at high speeds, maintain radio contact with constant location updates, and stay aware of everything happening on the streets to avoid killing people. I would think that is getting into fine motor and if so then it could be trained into our instinct. As stated I think it has a lot to do with experience and how you handle pressure.

Just my thought for now.



Ken

[Drew Howe]

Re: come on

[Power]

Lots of interesting discussion here.

All joking aside, I'm not sure the stuff about knife fighters and Jet pilots and Quarterbacks, etc., really matters all that much.

I disagree Drew. The 'stuff about knife fighters and Jet pilots' absolutely matters...let's face it, this is information that is being given to people and many of them will take it at face value as workable when you really need it. I'm being a tad melodramatic here, but that IS what Sammy teaches is it not? RBSD?

How about a question to parallel this debate: what separates fine-motor and gross-motor skills?

I'd say that if it requires a high degree of timing, precision, and skill to pull off, it's fine-motor. Gross-motor would be full-body movements that involve large muscle groups and do not require perfect timing. Still, nothing works without the proper timing, so what exactly is the proper definition? I look forward to hearing your responses.

Fine Motor Skills:
The ability to use small muscles such as those in the hands and the face (e.g. drawing, using a fork, drinking from a straw).

Gross Motor Skills:
Skills that involve large muscles such as those in the arms, legs, and abdomen (for example, throwing a ball, walking, sitting up).