jkd down fall

[sercuerdas]

bruce being a philsopher is what causes most of the arguing in jkd. he always exspressed things in cool fourtune cookie quotes instead of just saying what he thought. now all jkd people are left to interrupt or argue about what he meant. it is like reading the wording in the bible and interrupting it as you see.if the consensis is to find what works for you than that is nothing new.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

bruce being a philsopher is what causes most of the arguing in jkd. he always exspressed things in cool fourtune cookie quotes instead of just saying what he thought. now all jkd people are left to interrupt or argue about what he meant. it is like reading the wording in the bible and interrupting it as you see.if the consensis is to find what works for you than that is nothing new.

Bruce made it a habit to say what he thought clearly on a constant basis. Lot of people hated him for it.

Ryu

[Drew Howe]

The people that trained directly with Bruce Lee, for the most part, seem to have a complete understanding of what he said to them.

I think the major disagreements that takes place among different groups in JKD is a matter of semantics. Without doubt the biggest disagreement has been between Gary Dill and the Inosantos over "original" vs. "concepts."

Personally, I think it is much to do about nothing. But at times it has gotten pretty personal and I believe even lawyers have been involved. That's pretty sad. The opinion of many in the concepts group is that Dill is a fraud based mainly on the fact that he was told by James Lee in a 30 year old letter not to call himself a JKD instructor. I'm not a champion for Gary Dill. We've had our personality differences. But, in fairness to Gary, the letter also explains that only Bruce made the instructors, and James didn't want to see the college Gary was attending offering a course in JKD. Also, ITS A 30 YEAR OLD LETTER! Come On, give us all a break. James Lee never stated that Gary wasn't capable or qualified to teach JKD.

When all this started there was only one JKD camp and that was Dan Inosanto's group. Sure there was Taky, but he has always stayed out of the spotlight, and rarely endorses instructors. I think the fact that Gary was writing articles in the mid to late 80's about original JKD and the magazines putting his articles head to head with concepts guys ruffled a few feathers. Also, Gary never got certification from Inosanto, which I also think kind of pissed off concepts people. Gary's position was basically that he didn't need certification or approval from Inosanto. Gary had been a board member of the JKD society...he felt that this was all the certification he needed. Gary was also a 5th dan in Wu Wei Gung Fu under Joe Cowels (Bruce Lee student). Wu Wei is basically a JKD based system. This is all in addition to the fact that he is a 1st generation original Oakland JKD student.

Beyond all that, going back to James Lee's letter to Gary, if Bruce Lee only made the instructors then what makes Dan qualified to certify Gary or anyone else for that matter? I'm not saying that Dan can't make JKD instructors, but you see, you can't have it both ways. It's even more ludicrous for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation instructors like Mike Krivka, many of whom weren't even born when Gary was learning JKD from James Lee, to come out and say Gary is a fraud. Come on, are you guys serious? That's comical at best. Specially when you consider most of these guys got their basic level instructorships after a seminar or two. Who's the fraud, a guy with 30 years experience, or a guy with 3 or 4 seminars and apprentice level paper. I remember something my high school football coach once said to a new kid that was complaining. He said, "Freshman don't talk." It's a good lesson that some of these guys should learn.

Oh well, I'm sure this does nothing to help the situation. I don't know why I bother.

[roz]

correct me if i'm wrong, but you can not place inosanto and dill in the same boat. reason, Mr. inosanto studied directly under bruce lee, and Mr. dill trained under james lee, whom studied directly under bruce as dan. so a big gap has occured here - apples and oranges-

[tekshow]

correct me if i'm wrong, but you can not place inosanto and dill in the same boat. reason, Mr. inosanto studied directly under bruce lee, and Mr. dill trained under james lee, whom studied directly under bruce as dan. so a big gap has occured here - apples and oranges-

ehh you're all.... subjective...


it doesn't even matter... does your art work for you? are you studying what you know to be JKD or is your art as accurate as it claims to be?


do you benefit from it? can you test it on unknown opponents? do you go to seminars? do you learn as much as you can?


this whole topic and the hordes that are like it are all 'apples to oranges'


what we really need to be concentrating on is the actual applications, benefits, and authenticity of our arts, whatever they may be.


Bruce lee has been dead for 30 years, i think why he causes so much stir is because he opened up a lot of thinking and secrets to everyone - some of whom can't figure it out. That's just it, you can show someone the way but if they can't take it upon themselves they'll never get it. Always content to theorize rather than put something into action, we are lacking in real truth.


just my .$.02

[seany85]

there is just to much political b******t surounding JKD today! For something thats supposed to be simple, its gettin abit to complex.

[Drew Howe]

correct me if i'm wrong, but you can not place inosanto and dill in the same boat. reason, Mr. inosanto studied directly under bruce lee, and Mr. dill trained under james lee, whom studied directly under bruce as dan. so a big gap has occured here - apples and oranges-

Well it is either JKD or it isn't right? Training directly with Bruce Lee would have been a great experinence for anyone. I'm just not sure that there is a big gap between training with James or training with Bruce. James Lee easily had more personal training with Bruce than anyone else in the JKD clan.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take away anything from Dan Inosanto. But, 30 some odd years ago it was Bruce first and James second. And Bruce looked up to James like an older and wiser brother. I don't think James gets enough credit for his contributions to JKD...they are numerous. Anyone who got to train with James Lee from Inosanto on down is a fortunate person.

[roz]

tek
my applications work beautifully
what i study is artfull, the esscence of concept training, the beauty of flowing. i absorb as much as i can. seminars very,very seldom. an old streetfighter, whom feels very confident, with what is trusted upon .
thank you drew h., very fortunate one would be, to train with someone of that nature and to be inspired.

[IPON]

Bruce looked up to James like an older and wiser brother.I don't think James gets enough credit for his contributions to JKD...they are numerous.

This may be one of the few points on which we agree. Obviously, we can agree to disagree as this is an inflamatory subject which I try (usually) to stay out of.

1. you cannot compare the the experience of Inosanto with Dill, Dill trained for one year (and not a complete year mind you) vs inosanto which was almost Lee's right hand man. If there was a MA to pass on, how could you think that Dill could be as qulaified as Inosanto, no offensive but that is not objective, it smells of denial

2. Regarding the letter from James Lee it is very relevent (regardless if is it is 31 years old) becuase it speacks to the charater of the person. If somone is claiming to be an instructor and is not qualified. You don't think it is decietful that he give a partial letter and not add the most importatnt parts

I don't think James Lee was worried about the COLLEGE starting classes I think he was worried about Dill starting he classes. You have to read betwen the lines and ask the question Why would James Lee even write such a letter and maybe the answer is becuase he was trying to prevent the very thing that Dill is doing.

I have just included this for thiose that have not seen the letter (this is partial)

" if you want to set up an informal group in college as firnds, working out together - I say fine -in other words unsing the wing chun book and helping them iunderstand some of teh techniquies becuase you learned from the author. But if you want to set up a formal class in college as part & parcel of the college cirriculum - then you've really screwed me with Bruce whose friendship I treasure highly."

"So if you know some people that like to work out in a non formal, no commercial way with noaffiliation with our 3 schools in L.A., Oakland, or Seattle goahead. So if you can handle it a no publicity, no recruiting, non commercial, non formal-go ahead. in other word, you are just working out with a select few to keep your skill in JKD and WC-for your own benefit -not to try and pass yourselrf off as an instructor in our style of no style-remember keep classes small and exclusive."

You of course can interpret how you want - no flame. The current problem is bigger than Dill (though he is a big contributer) Regardless of the past, the problem is that 90% or better of what is taught as "JKD" is pure crap. The blind teaching the blind. Where students are getting mail order and :weekedn warrior" certificates and are teaching and perpetuating crap, unfortunately, this will not likely end.

Interesting how people will perpetuate this crap in the name of someone they claim to respect above all in MA. Very sad.

[Drew Howe]

IPON,

I don't disagree with what you said at all. However, James Lee was Gary Dill's first JKD instructor not his only JKD instructor. As I mentioned earlier, Gary also trained with Joe Cowles, a Bruce Lee student in Seattle. Gary was awarded a 5th dan in Wu Wei Gung Fu by Joe, a system that Joe Cowles founded based on the techniques and concepts he learned from Bruce Lee. Gary also trained with many of the other first gen. guys from the time period.

Granted, about 18 years after James Lee died, Gary decided to start a big JKD association. This goes beyond what James Lee didn't want him to do. But if you are being fair with your criticism, then Dan Inosanto is equally guilty of going against his teachers wishes. By Dan Inosanto's own admission, Bruce clearly wanted JKD to be underground. It wasn't supposed to be commercial and that is why he shut down the Chinatown school. The fact that Dan created the four phase Jun Fan Gung Fu program to replace the original JKD instruction, is hardly in keeping with Bruce's wishes. Maybe in Dan's mind it is...but it is semantics. Same thing with an old name.

As I've said, it is good that Dan didn't keep JKD underground, but he went against his teachers wishes just as Gary did. Fair is fair.

[IPON]

As I've said, it is good that Dan didn't keep JKD underground, but he went against his teachers wishes just as Gary did. Fair is fair.

Actually, it is a big difference. I believe that Dan started the concepts in responsie to the widespread of JKD schools who were teaching inappropriately. Dill studied under James lee less than one year and all the avertising and marketing is based on the oakland school and his training under James Lee. Now while he has learned other arts the only "JKD" training has been with James Lee.

Still it is too simple to say "well he did too so it is OK" quantatively and qualitatively you cannot compare Dill and Inosanto, in general, but definately interms of JKD.

Bruces' JKD was his expression of JKD, but not JKD. This is where people get confused, yes he taught actual techniques but they were essetially wing chun and it was in constant flux. This JKD was his expression, Dan's JKD is his expression and it is completely different and it should be.

Nothing should be called or taught as JKD. I agree, that Dan is equally wrong using the term JKD, the philosophy or concept is more imprtant thant the technique. But again, I believe Dan's reason was reactionary not profit motivated. The point is to find your expression in MA. What is taught now is "Cheat Con Do"

Another point, is that let's stop discussing Dill. He is not worth either of our time to discuss or type.

[akja]

Food For Thought

I dropped the using of the name of JKD just as my Sifu did.

http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

But a wise man came along and told me it was a discredit to the original system and founder. He said I should put my name in front of Jeet Kune Do, making it "My Version" of the system. Isn't that what Dill did? SDS/JKD?

For the record, I still don't really use it. I'm recognized by my Instructors as head of my own system which is appropriate because I "found use" for some of what was discarded. That is "my way" and has nothing to do with JKD.

As far teaching JKD. ALL of the old students teach it, certified or not. AND they are better authorities than the "newcomers" in my opinion.

Any way go to this page and click the 5th link on the left side. It shows James Lee was certified Full Instructor in 1964, the same year Dan Inosanto met Bruce.

http://oakland.jkd.com.hk/

Also I beleive Dan is highest living JKD authority.

[Drew Howe]

Listen, it's all pretty simple. JKD is very political thing. Pretty much everyone fell in to the line that Dan was the go to guy after Bruce died. Out of respect, Dan recognized Taky Kimura as his senior and because Taky had higher rank from Bruce. Basically, if you were going to be a JKD instructor the unwritten rule was that you had to get authorization/recognition from Dan Inosanto. Taky didn't certify people and he basically said that Dan was the go to guy on that.

Dill did two things that angered some people. First, he didn't go to Dan seeking his approval. Second, he started the JKD Association. Dill's position is that he doesn't need Dan's authorization. Well, as you can imagine that pissed a lot of people off. So, for many years Dan's guys have tried to discredit Dill. Sure the James Lee letter stuff added to this a bit...but it wouldn't matter one way or the other. Keep in mind the only reason Bustillo had a copy of the full letter is because Dill gave it out. He's being accused of hiding something. If that was the case, Dill could have done a better job than this. When I started with Dill I saw the full letter as well. He wasn't hiding it from me. So the attack based on the letter doesn't hold much water. Dill was competition for Dan's instructors and they didn't like it. He wasn't one of Dan's guys and didn't seek Dan's approval.

Dill was very honest with me why he felt it was proper for him to start the JKD Association. His explanation was that what Dan and the new concepts instructors were calling JKD wasn't the JKD that Bruce Lee or James Lee taught. Dill felt the need to show people that JKD was a system and not just a concept. Dan wasn't keeping with Bruce's request for him to keep JKD small or exclusive and in the back yard. Nope, he changed the name back to Jun Fan Gung Fu, created a four phase training program in it, and called everything he was doing JKD concepts. At the same time he was also creating a lot of instructors that made up the bulk of the commercial JKD seminar, video, and book market. Small, exclusive, and underground...I don't think so.

Again, as I have said several times, I think it is all good. Bruce died young. Who knows how things might have changed had he lived. Dan and his guys believe things would have continued to evolve as they have on their side. Others believe that JKD was a complete art...nothing needed to be added or included or changed. No one knows for sure. All anyone knows is that both Dan and Gary were told by their respective sifus that they could train people in JKD as long as it was kept small and exclusive. You can't be critical of one for doing what they have done, without being critical of the other. The only difference was that Dan had been certified to teach JKD by Bruce Lee and Gary was not. But if you are going to go down that road, then there are a whole host of other 1st gen people that teach and were not certified by Bruce either.

Now having said all this, I don't like Gary at all and I haven't talked to him in close to 10 years. I don't like his personality and I don't like how he treated some of my fellow JKD Assoc. instructors. In fairness, he may be a different guy then he was when I knew him. I don't know. I can only speak of my experiences with him. But you know what, he is an excellent source for JKD. You could do much much much worse than learning JKD from Gary Dill. He was an original Oakland JKD student, trained directly with James Lee, 5th dan in Wu Wei under Joe Cowles, and has over 20 years of real world experience in applying JKD as a law enforcement officer. He's a former Navel Investigative Service - NIS (now Navel Criminal Investigative Service - NCIS) special agent, a special agent for the Oklahoma State Board of Invetigation (OK's state vers. of the FBI), and he was the chief of police in two cities. And, he is one of the fastest big men I have ever seen.

If you are looking to learn JKD from 1st generation students, then I would seek Gary out as one of your instructors. All this other stuff is pure politics.

[sercuerdas]

where does a guy like jessie glover fall in all of this?

[akja]

Listen, it's all pretty simple. JKD is very political thing. Pretty much everyone fell in to the line that Dan was the go to guy after Bruce died. Out of respect, Dan recognized Taky Kimura as his senior and because Taky had higher rank from Bruce. Basically, if you were going to be a JKD instructor the unwritten rule was that you had to get authorization/recognition from Dan Inosanto. Taky didn't certify people and he basically said that Dan was the go to guy on that.

Dill did two things that angered some people. First, he didn't go to Dan seeking his approval. Second, he started the JKD Association. Dill's position is that he doesn't need Dan's authorization. Well, as you can imagine that pissed a lot of people off. So, for many years Dan's guys have tried to discredit Dill. Sure the James Lee letter stuff added to this a bit...but it wouldn't matter one way or the other. Keep in mind the only reason Bustillo had a copy of the full letter is because Dill gave it out. He's being accused of hiding something. If that was the case, Dill could have done a better job than this. When I started with Dill I saw the full letter as well. He wasn't hiding it from me. So the attack based on the letter doesn't hold much water. Dill was competition for Dan's instructors and they didn't like it. He wasn't one of Dan's guys and didn't seek Dan's approval.

Dill was very honest with me why he felt it was proper for him to start the JKD Association. His explanation was that what Dan and the new concepts instructors were calling JKD wasn't the JKD that Bruce Lee or James Lee taught. Dill felt the need to show people that JKD was a system and not just a concept. Dan wasn't keeping with Bruce's request for him to keep JKD small or exclusive and in the back yard. Nope, he changed the name back to Jun Fan Gung Fu, created a four phase training program in it, and called everything he was doing JKD concepts. At the same time he was also creating a lot of instructors that made up the bulk of the commercial JKD seminar, video, and book market. Small, exclusive, and underground...I don't think so.

Again, as I have said several times, I think it is all good. Bruce died young. Who knows how things might have changed had he lived. Dan and his guys believe things would have continued to evolve as they have on their side. Others believe that JKD was a complete art...nothing needed to be added or included or changed. No one knows for sure. All anyone knows is that both Dan and Gary were told by their respective sifus that they could train people in JKD as long as it was kept small and exclusive. You can't be critical of one for doing what they have done, without being critical of the other. The only difference was that Dan had been certified to teach JKD by Bruce Lee and Gary was not. But if you are going to go down that road, then there are a whole host of other 1st gen people that teach and were not certified by Bruce either.

Now having said all this, I don't like Gary at all and I haven't talked to him in close to 10 years. I don't like his personality and I don't like how he treated some of my fellow JKD Assoc. instructors. In fairness, he may be a different guy then he was when I knew him. I don't know. I can only speak of my experiences with him. But you know what, he is an excellent source for JKD. You could do much much much worse than learning JKD from Gary Dill. He was an original Oakland JKD student, trained directly with James Lee, 5th dan in Wu Wei under Joe Cowles, and has over 20 years of real world experience in applying JKD as a law enforcement officer. He's a former Navel Investigative Service - NIS (now Navel Criminal Investigative Service - NCIS) special agent, a special agent for the Oklahoma State Board of Invetigation (OK's state vers. of the FBI), and he was the chief of police in two cities. And, he is one of the fastest big men I have ever seen.

If you are looking to learn JKD from 1st generation students, then I would seek Gary out as one of your instructors. All this other stuff is pure politics.

This isn't really related but were you certified to teach by Gary Dill or just Carter Hargrave?

I have a truly genuine interest.