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  • JKD? Form must follow function.

    JKD? Form must follow function.


    The word is not the thing and the description is never the described.

    If performance in a specific area is indeed your goal, then the simple logic of form following function must be the standard. And everything must be tested.
    As such, here is a simple paradigm for JKD following that dictate.

    As well written in an article by Mark Stewart:

    "Lee felt that a real fight was unpredictable and that most classical styles emphasized “dead patterns” instead of live and spontaneous training. Lee believed that combative sports such as boxing and judo were practiced more realistically than most classical systems. Why? They made real impact and they practiced live training and not dead patterns. Lee also came to the conclusion the MA was Universal and that “unless there is a being with more than two arms and two legs, that there is only one style of fighting, the human style.” So, Lee conceptualized martial art as a whole and embarked upon a scientific course. Not one that blended styles but one that was born of the idea of non-style, geometry and physics. One as he described as “simple, direct and non-classical” (functional). In a sense Lee’s JKD is a martial art with no rules that is practiced like a combative sport with real impact (full contact) and live training."

    This in my opinion is perfect.

    Whether or not it's actually what he did is not relevant, unless one wishes to engage in endless, and meaningless conversations about what "Bruce lee" could do, which I find silly.

    However, the ideal of it is common sense.

    According to this idea that PROCESS is in and of itself the method of JKD. And that method, if one where to actually practice JKD would continue endlessly evolving. With the end goal of that process being summed up as PERFORMANCE. Performance in whatever theater of operations one is engaging in, self defense, law enforcement training, sports, health, enjoyment, etc.

    As such, anything left in the curriculum from Bruce Lee's time, the "original" JKD material, would need to stand up under pressure testing against other approaches. It would need to be shown that that material, and its methods, serves as a better vehicles for people in the various theaters of operations.

    If it does not show to be a better method, in a specific field of operations, and yet one insists on leaving it in instead of replacing it with a more efficient method, then yes you have created another traditional Martial arts "style". Fixed in time, ceasing to evolve, and therefore no longer "cutting edge".

    "This approach was very revolutionary during the time of its creation"

    Yes and no. Yes it was in the America of the 60's. No it was not within the history of the USA and the world.

    There are no new thoughts.

    I own a book called "The New Science of Weaponless Defense" By a man named Prof. F.S. Lewis. In that book he talks about strong side forward, using a strong lead vertical power jab. A lead leg kick to the shin, the ideal of interception, simultaneous parry and hit, the importance of knowing all ranges, the need for physical conditioning, etc. It also contains pictures of the mount, guard position, etc. This book was written in the United States and published in 1906.

    As King Solomon says in the good book, there is nothing new under the sun.

    "and is still quite rare today."

    Yes and no. Quite rare in what field of operations? In Law Enforcement training? No, there are programs now for LE training, such as Luis's ISRMatrix which are cutting edge and leading the way for a new, safer, more functional paradigm of training for Police.

    Quite rare for Martial Arts? Negative, every good MMA Gym in this country cross trains and comes up with new and cutting edge methods of 'beating people up'.

    Quite rare for self defense schools? No, I think Tony Blauer and others have made headway way beyond what Bruce Lee was doing in his time.

    Quite rare for traditional Martial Arts and the majority of "JKD" schools? YES, absolutely. I would agree with that 100%. Sadly most JKD schools around the world are using an abundance of dead patterns, and training methods that will by design develop habits in athletes that may likely cause them to get hurt when trying their stuff against the pressure of a real attacker.

    What is especialy ironic in this case is that the above stated description of JKD is indeed very rare within the JKD community itself.

    If you do not label MMA as a form of JKD, at least within the theater of operations we call "sport" then for that view to be logical, and reconciled with the above stated description, one would have to do one of two things.
    You either have to say that the "JKD" you are now speaking of is no longer:

    "Not one that blended styles but one that was born of the idea of non-style, geometry and physics. One as he described as “simple, direct and non-classical” (functional). In a sense Lee’s JKD is a martial art with no rules that is practiced like a combative sport with real impact (full contact) and live training."

    Or you have to show how the "JKD" you are speaking of IS the most logical and FUNCTIONAL method within a specific theater of operation.

    Because if one where to stand by the above stated description the PERFORMANCE would be the simple proof of the pudding. Not the performance of ONE athlete or fighter of course. That is not "scientific". But the performance of multiple athletes, over a period of time, which clearly shows one specific technique, strategy, training method, or "ideal", to be more FUNCTIONAL then others.

    Which is back to the point of what we have done at SBGi, and what Burton Richardson has also done. We have based our training, methods, and curriculum on what has shown to work best under the pressure of an aggressive resisting attacker in a specific field of operations. Be it self defense scenarios', MMA fights, Law Enforcement training, etc.

    As an example, both Burton and I use the boxing blast instead of the vertical fist rolling punch blast. Why? Because it has proven itself to be far safer, more powerful, and more FUNCTIONAL.

    In addition, all the SBGi Gyms have now switched to the CM boxing method taught developed by Rodney King. As for myself, I started boxing at 11 Years old, and have been around traditional western boxing for decades. Other Gym coaches such as Adam and Rory Singer also have deep rooted boxing experience. We ALL switched to CM boxing because it has shown itself to work ten times better for the students walking through my door when the spar full contact, as compared to the more traditional boxing methods of defense which are more attribute based.

    As for "trapping" we threw almost all of it out, and replaced it with clinch material. I had thrown most of it out Years ago, as it clearly does not function. But when I first met Randy Couture when he first began his MMA journey I realized what the missing link in the chain was, and what we had to ad in there. PROPER clinch.

    There was of course some clinch before, but to understand what a PROPER clinch is like one needs to really feel what a great Greco athlete can do. Just as one needs to experience life on the ground with a seasoned BJJ player or black belt to understand just how dangerous they can be on the mat. There were no questions as to what needed to be added.

    The same holds true for the weapons curriculum. The typical 'Kali' drills taught can often be more harm to the user. But Karl Tanswell developed a method that actually works, and is FUNCTIONAL when it comes to defending against a blade. It's not speculation, as we have tested it thousands of times now in a completely Alive environment.

    So as you can see the basic rule for one interested in training for PERFORMANCE is rather simple. . . .

    FORM MUST FOLLOW FUNCTION

    Not the other way around.

    So according to that rule, the root delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground, need to be taught and learned. These delivery systems have already been created by experts in their respective fields.

    Which is not to say that they no longer EVOLVE.

    However, as an example. If one where a white belt SKILL LEVEL (the belt being only a sign post of skill in this sense) in BJJ, and then believe you are ready to start creating your own delivery system on the ground would be silly, and a lesson in futility. One would need to learn guard, mount, crossides, headlock escapes, etc. Why re invent the wheel?

    Likewise, if you have little to no experience in the real clinch skills of a seasoned Greco player, then one needs to become familiar with those positions of underhooks, overhooks, bodylocks, 2 on 1's, and neck ties.

    This is simply because it IS true what was stated above;

    a human being only has two arms and two legs, and every conceivable position you can find yourself in when it comes to the clinch has already been researched and trained by those experts. Likewise, those experts have researched every position you will find the human body in on the ground.

    Those positions and ROOT SKILLS are the DELIVERY SYSTEM.

    Now as each athlete/fighter develops his/her skills in those DELIVERY SYSTEMS they will discover what aspects of those DS's work for their individual BODY, MIND, and EMOTIONAL make up. And they will begin developing their own sense of timing, and "STYLE".

    And EVERY athlete will indeed develop his or her own "Style" as they acquire skill in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground, through ALIVE training, and testing themselves against thousands of training partners and opponents over time.

    If you stick to the idea of a scientific method based solely on PERFORMANCE, then that process IS JKD.
    As simple as that really is, it seems lost on the majority within JKD. Outsiders to the community see it more easily, but find no need for the label of "jkd".

    And they are absolutely correct, as Krishnamurti stated, the word is never the thing itself.

    But oh how humans love to argue over labels and names. It's the attachment of the ego itself to a perceived outside source, which finds such labels meaningful.

    We at SBGi are ALWAYS willing to change, adapt, throw out, or add, anything we find more FUNCTIONAL, or useful. But it does have to be SHOWN to be more functional and useful for us to do that.

    Otherwise, it's just theory. And nothing we do is based on theory; it's all based on performance.

    Every change, every step of evolution each of our coaches has put the curriculum through, has been based SOLEY on PERFORMANCE within a specific field of operations.

    JKD should not be Bruce Lee's method, JKD should be YOUR method.

    The fact that it is still BL's method may indeed be the baggage. After all, it should be each individual's own method, if it is truly JKD.

    Happy New Years! -Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com

  • #2
    Jkd

    THat was a good post. And I have to agree with most of what you pointed out. Even the part that JKD has to be yours. BUT at a starting point even in you training . One has to learn to find there own. JKd has its path in what Bruce handed down as the course of learning. THen after its all your own. And if you choose to go on and further your understanding great. We all start some where. And then go to other places or understand more of what we can do. In JKD be it Ojkd or concepts. And any fight training for that matter. Its goal should be that it becomes yours to do. Or you never really grasp it. JKd may be the baggage . If the person holds on to it as It must be done this way.But its free if the person Finds out how it can work for them. Just as what is being done in your gym. The students ther to have to train then try and try somemore to improve. And if they are improving and it shows. Then they are getting somwhere. You made good points And in the end what you said applies to all the training methods of any m/a . The person has to let go of what they learned to make it become alive in them. Or it is not any good to them. I guess what I may be saying .Is its not the art its how you asorb it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by smartmonkey
      JKD? Form must follow function.

      JKD should not be Bruce Lee's method, JKD should be YOUR method.

      The fact that it is still BL's method may indeed be the baggage. After all, it should be each individual's own method, if it is truly JKD.
      JKD is Bruce Lee's method. When you change or develop it beyond what Bruce Lee did, then it starts to become something of your own. As long as you are clear on what is Bruce Lee's and what is your own I see know problem in using the name JKD. Provided of course you have lineage to Lee. Now, if what you are doing has nothing to do with Bruce Lee's method (JKD) and you are using the name, Jeet Kune Do, then you are being dishonest and simply using the name to gain customers.

      If you feel like you are doing something more effective than JKD as developed by Bruce Lee, then put your own name to it and stop trying to explain how it's your own JKD. All anyone does by teaching this or that and calling it JKD, is confuse the uneducated public. Beyond that, there are more than just a few of us who think Original JKD as a system is extremely effective. But, I have seen many practitioners who weren't good, as well as instructors who sucked. I don't think they as individuals would be any better if they studied SBG material to the same level. They would most likely still suck.

      Matt, based on your experience in orignal JKD, which doesn't seem to be very extensive, I don't think you have been exposed to the proper instruction. Sure, you have trained with a bunch of concepts based people, but they don't know OJKD either. There are plenty of pre-73'ers out there teaching OJKD. I think if you had the fortune to train with several of them, you might have a different opinion on the current day effectiveness of OJKD.

      Comment


      • #4
        Drew the name is not the thing, and the description is not the described. If you would like to fix a definition to the term JKD other then the one I have offered, by all means go for it. There will be no discussion here.

        If you dislike my definition that is certainly your choice, and it doesn't matter to us.



        "Matt, based on your experience in orignal JKD, which doesn't seem to be very extensive, I don't think you have been exposed to the proper instruction."

        You are welcome at my Gym anytime, or any SBGi and we can go over how extensive that is or isnt in person. I have been in the JKD community for over 12 Years, and if you have something better to offer that we have not seen then I can tell you we have hundreds of athletes here ready to test it, try it, and see for ourselves.

        So come SHOW US.


        "Sure, you have trained with a bunch of concepts based people, but they don't know OJKD either. There are plenty of pre-73'ers out there teaching OJKD. I think if you had the fortune to train with several of them, you might have a different opinion on the current day effectiveness of OJKD."


        Then please Drew, drop by and show us. As I stated clearly our curriculum at SBGi is based SOLEY on PERFORMANCE within various fields of operation.

        So pick a field, and show us a better way.

        MMA is a great venue for such tests, and there are many events you or others who feel this way could partake in. But it is not the only one. We, as well as many others such as Tony Blauer use scenario training, try that out as well. There is no reason why in 2004 your material cannot be tested under realistic circumstances.

        We also have an open mat policy at SBGi. This means you are welcome in my Gym, or the other SBGi's and you can field test your theory first hand, under the rules or parameters you would like.

        Your welcome anytime.

        Again, regards our curriculum, there is no speculation within it. It's all been tested time and again, and we have no issues with doing that in the future. When better methods present themselves then an evolution takes place. It doesn't get more JKD then that. So if you have a better method. . .come show us.

        Have a good New Year
        -Matt Thornton

        Comment


        • #5
          Here is a good Q & A from another forum that illustrates this thinking very clearly:



          "It's like starting out with Karate stripping away all the entire curriculum keeping the principle's and adding Muay Thai. At some point it ceases to be Karate."


          Yes, if one where to define JKD as another traditional Martial Art whose techniques where fixed in time, and beyond evolution, then you would be correct. And that is what Bruce Lee himself called a 'dead pattern'.

          If one defines JKD as universal principles, then the understanding is there.


          "I like your method though. I guess it would only matter to someone who wants to follow in Lee's footsteps and use the name (JKD) as a status symbol, as oppose to finding a combat effective system."


          Excellent point, it depends on what one is truly after.

          If it's performance within a specific field of operations, then form will follow function, and performance will dictate tactics & techniques.

          If not, then who knows. Many simply like the attachment to a movie star, etc. It becomes an image one chases. And that is truly common in all things.

          The main thing is you stay safe, and have fun along the way.

          cheers
          -Matt Thornton

          Comment


          • #6
            Drew. I think more in the line .That Matt was expressing the point beyond conditioned responce. Take JKd training drills. They help train on the how to do it . But after that . You the person have to get it working. Where Open defence drills and sparring. Letting go of the training portion to the testing and doing action. Thats why I agree There. I do ojkd As its now called . But Know its beyond the training where you really get to know what you can do. Now Matt has gone his own way and explored and developed his personal end to lets say jkd. by the concept route. I dont see him saying hes teaching jkd. I see him sayinmg they are doing differnt methods of different arts to Mixed M/A that helps them and others improve and evolve. There choice. I try to stay within the JKd set training. And know that theres plenty of other things out there that would perhaps enhance it. And Bruce did encourage all jkd students to lokk into grappling to help complete there training. Thats why he was going to gene Labell and wally jay to expose hiself to more of the grappling art. And Alot of the say concept group were exposed to what is now called ojkd. As jun fan// And were exposed to the other arts to find what they wanted. Lets say as a JKD instructor You train the student in a set curriculium. As it was past down to you. But during that training they had to develop ther e freedom in doing it . To be able to use it. THat can only happen during the open training. And in time also. Other wise they are just really learning memory work. Not much different the kata training. Just like the boxer. He starts out learning the differnt hands trains the bag conditions the body But if he does not get in the ring the tools do not come together for him. And I think you do not have to learn alot of differnt tools But get good at a certion amount of workable tools. And poeople sometimes forget JKd has the horizanal fist also. And thats used in the boxing sence. ojkd and ground tools that have been added is still ojkd. Bruce did want judo jujitsu looked into by the students. And In any fight Its the person that makes the out come happen. So alive training has to be included with drilled training to find results. Any way I probably said to much

            Comment


            • #7
              matt t., you have good points, but you try to advertise your business by putting respected values down in your process. hey man if your good than so be it. you use the name jkd to exploit your ventures but you have no long term jkd exploits with proper lineage. you are 3-4 generation. but thats cool so am i. yet i am still happy and look forward to staying at my home - soliz,pfs,inosanto. matt i don't need to prove to myself by having to attend your school or to see life thru your views. you do have a good sales pitch. matt please try and understand, to respect others beliefs and friends, is a foundation in it self. your article in black belt years back was like concepts this and referance points that. when i read that - I was turned off- and still to this day your still beating around the same bush. give it a break, if what you got or others have is that good than relax. others will here the good word. till then, shall we respect what others look forward to and peace with you and yours
              l.robert guerrero

              Comment


              • #8
                Robert,

                I understand you point of view, but plainly speaking it is simply a matter of you not understanding what is being said.

                Sometimes truth makes people uncomfortable. That is a good thing.

                Regarding putting others down, nobody from SBGi, myself included, has ever, or will ever do that. It's simply never happened.

                So it's a non issue.

                If you render a discussion of 'training methods' as "putting others down", then yes in deed by your very definition JKD is dead, and just a traditional mess. However, with proper understanding, and a little thought one realizes there is no need for it to be that way. It's simply a matter of one creating an issue that doesn't really exist.

                Have a great new year.
                -Matt Thornton

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Matt

                  Very good article, thanks a lot. Maybe I will copy it to our German Martial Arts board, with your permission

                  Greetings

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Matt,

                    I wasn't suggesting that I had anything to show you. I was suggesting that many of the pre-73 "original" first generation students that studied with Bruce Lee, or at least at one of the schools while he was alive, do have something to show you.

                    I saw your bio in relation to your JKD training in another thread. If it was accurate then you could spend another 12 years training with those people and still not experience JKD. You bio indicated that you taught PFS, Richardson, etc., I don't see any relation to JKD, other than they were students of Dan Inosanto. Inosanto hasn't taught JKD as he leanred it in close to 30 years. Your program may be sound, but it isn't JKD. JKD is a concept, but it is also a combative SYSTEM with its own techniques void of the classical, ritual, and sport aspects found in most systems.

                    JKD is not like the MMA training that you teach or that is found at countless other schools. You may be a great instructor and teach an effective program...but JKD is specific, not a combination of anything other than what Bruce Lee put to it.

                    Now, I know we won't agree. That is fine. You are kind of stuck in the idea that you can prove original JKD less effective by a contest on the mat. You can prove many things that way. I'm not sure OJKD is one of them. It's not a sporting contest. About the only thing you might do in such a contest is prove one fighter is better than the other...not SBGi is better than OJKD.

                    Anyway, you seem to be doing well for yourself. I wish you luck.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      OJKD this, Concepts that...whatever...

                      Hi all,

                      As some of you know, I trained in and taught OJKD for many years, so it is safe to say that I have somewhat of an understanding of it's training methodologies and techniques. I am not an expert of course, but I gave it more than it's 'due'.

                      Being functional at any range is the goal, and the simplest way of seeing that path that needs to be taken to reach that goal is through alive training. If and when you train in an alive training environment, it becomes blatantly clear what works, and what simply does not. This goes for technique, strategy, training methodology and more.

                      It is the “Alive training” that dictates what and how you train, when you train, you will see and feel exactly what you are lacking in. You will see what tools are needed, and (the scariest part for some is) that you will see that many of the techniques that you’ve been training in for years…are near useless in stressful conditions.

                      Let’s get away from Bruce Lee and JKD for a moment as it seems to generate emotions in some people, let’s look at make believe art I will call Madigan-Jitsu…cool? Ok, now if I say to myself “I am going to start training Madigan-Jitsu in an alive manner, and make it work for me under stressful conditions I will soon see that most of what I am training in simply doesn’t work, and much what does work…could have been done in a much simpler way. I will also see that my ‘new’ Madigan-Jitsu strangely resembles bad boxing, bad wrestling and even worse BJJ. So why try and transform the Madigan-Jitsu into what it is not in the hopes of making it functional? It is much more realistic to train in delivery methods that is based in alive, real training and good form…Boxing, Wrestling and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I don’t have to transform the training methodology, or techniques of these arts to make them alive…they already are.

                      It’s the same with JKD. When I was training in OJKD, I would read Matt’s post on the net (and the posts of the guys that trained with him) and I was convinced that I needed to see what this was all about. When I looked into it, my first idea was to start changing how I was going to train in, and teach OJKD. I was going to turn OJKD Alive! LOL Sorry, but it just doesn’t work out that way.

                      I started training with people outside of my little circle of OJKD friends and noticed very quickly that even though we had great “JKD footwork” we were taken down by collage wrestlers almost at will. Why? Well, you can say that our footwork and distance control were lacking…maybe, but it really came down to the fact that we were not aware of what was being used against us, and we had no idea how to deal with things that were common place in alive sparring. I soon realized that if I wanted to ‘hang’ with people that take me down, I had better become very familiar with takedowns, how they work and how to counter them. Now, what was I going to do…look for these answers in OJKD...where they didn’t truly exist? Or, should I train with a collage wrestler and ask him/her for help. See what I am getting at here? It was the results of my training in an Alive manner that told me that I had to train takedowns aggressively to understand them. This of course has nothing to do with OJKD.
                      Have I scrapped everything about OJKD? No, but most of it is completely gone from what we do. Hey, there is only so much time in the day for training, and that time can not be wasted on drills and training methodologies that are near useless. I want the highest percentage of realistic results from my training. It just makes sense to only train in drills that will give me positive results now…not 30 years from now.

                      Anyway, this is some of my thoughts on this.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hey Sean!

                        I agree with the need for training in other areas. I've trained in BJJ and Kali off and on for over 10 years. As I have said many times, it is really a matter of semantics. I believe that people should just call what they do what it really is. This idea that JKD is a living breathing system isn't true. JKD has core techniques that Bruce Lee was still teaching to his protege, Ted Wong, prior to his death. I suppose the concepts of JKD are living and breathing and can be applied to anything. But, JKD is not just a concept, no matter how convincing proponents of that premise, or people's misunderstanding of parables from Bruce Lee, may sound.

                        That is pretty much the only thing I disagree with.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Matt I was not trying to put some one down. The point was that Jkd has a learning area. That trains the person in the jkd method. And if the person getting the training is not alowed to train it in a open method then it becomes . Fixed. JKd has to be the person and can remain with the jkd that bruce handed down. But he wanted the person to find there way of useing it. To make it workable for them. There are several people in any m/a group that do not go beyond fixed training. Alive training is the next step in any thing. Its all that gives personal experiances. Even learning how to drive a car you have to get behind the wheel. You made good points in the first post. I took it as a view and kept it in line with JKD training . Not knocking your way or any one else. And to Drew it is to say that if he looked at the post and let it bleed to jkd that method though applied different is still what
                          jkd is meant to do. be alive to find the understanding. Or it is not really learned in a functional way. I have seen people that looked great in a controled set. All the drills all the form. And then in spar they lacked in being able to do very much in real application. Just as I see some bjj people They are strong in the ground game. But have limited up right skills. And they just use it to get to the ground. When they have to go for more then a little up right. They show me they would not last long if they did not have the ground game. So what are some of them doing. Trying to improve thee up right game. Jkd has punching kicking and a light ground training. I would say any JKd person that wanted to train towards the ring mode would just have to get a little stronger in there ground game And could do well. BUT agin the training would have to change some towards ring rules. And would have to have alot of Sparing time to get ready. Still the point is beyond drills comes alive training to get the tools to work and find the ones that do not fit that individual person. They are discarded for the ring use but may be ok on the street. No one has the great answer. And there are many paths to learning the fight game or different M/A styles. To keep any alive you SPAR light medium and full contact with a certion amount of control. And as long as that is included in OJKD by most then alive training finds the use. So I think the way you train can be the same as Any step to improving what you refure to As performance. ALIVE exposer. And JKD was meant to have that step remain in its training. Not just the training and a small amount of open training. But equal or more alive training. And alot are and some are not including as much in there programs. I understood what I wanted in you post. And pointed to Drew a open view to why it applied ti JKD and that You were say expressing your method of personal JKD concepts. Or strictly sbg methods. Both can bleed to help in learning. When done in alive methods.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Here's a small portion of an interview with Taky Kimura that I feel has some relevance to the discussion at hand. I got the information from here. http://www.forumco.com/pauljbax/topi...2DJeet+Kune+Do


                            IKF: How do you view the art of jeet kune do?

                            TK: The art of jeet kune do was developed by Bruce while he was living in Los Angeles. I can say that it was the product of many years of martial arts research. Probably because my close relationship with him as a friend, I am the only guy in Seattle that saw the JKD level that he was into whenever he came up here. His approach was very revolutionary in the mid-'60s and many people weren't ready to understand what he was talking about. The training emphasized contact sparring with headgear, gloves, and shin guards — that was something very uncommon then. He was talking about "liberating" the martial artist when a lot of people didn't understand what it meant "to be slave of a style." I can compare the art of jeet kune do to a beautiful sculptured object. The final product is awesome but how did he do it? I think it's important to go through the pieces that he discarded, study them, and learn them to get up to that point because it was an ongoing process of "shedding away the nonessentials." Sometimes there are things that we don't understand today but that will became increasingly clear to us in time. Unfortunately, I have seen the effects of exploitation and inadequacy in jeet kune do and rarely, if ever, do many gain more than just a physical understanding of what the art is all about.

                            --------

                            HAVE YOU FOUND THE SAME LIMITATIONS IN WING CHUN THAT BRUCE DID?
                            TK:

                            As far as Wing Chun goes there is a vast amount of knowledge there and, to be honest with you, I don’t know much of it. The only thing I know is the modified techniques that Bruce taught us. If some of those people who are real Wing Chun artists would come into our club and see us they would probably shake their heads and say "What the hell are these guys doing?" I can’t really say one way or the other about it. I think the concept of Wing Chun in principle is very good. It’s a simplified straight movement in that it takes away a lot of the impractical things you might see in another structure. When I mention this I certainly don’t mean to take anything away from anyone else. I always tell guys that want to get into our private club that you might think wrestling or boxing is the best thing and if that’s the case, that’s what you're going to excel in if that’s how you feel. We’re not here to tell you we have something that is better than boxing or anything else.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Robert, I was speaking to roz in that post, who is also named robert, so no worries.

                              In addition, Aliveness is not a "step" in training. Everyone from the first day they walk in our Gym's, or attends a seminar, trains Alive from moment one with everything we do. It's a much faster, funner, safer way to train and excel then what is typically used in most traditional MA, or JKD schools.


                              Drew, regards this statement you made:

                              "This idea that JKD is a living breathing system isn't true."

                              That really speaks volumes, and says it all.

                              I agree, if you believe that statement then for you it is a fixed, and now just another dead pattern.

                              The bottom line is this, if OJKD has a better method to use when fighting, then show us. If it did, we would use it. Not just SBGi. . .there are many other Gyms, even most MMA Gyms which will adopt whatever works. After all, they want to win!

                              If your aurgument is that it is only for the "street", and won't work in MMA, then you are essentialy saying the deliverey system of OJKD is less functional then the one's currently used in MMA if it's 'eye jabs' and kicks with shoes are taken out. If you believe that, then there are other issues that also need to be cleared up for you.

                              Regardless, we are not bound by a specific "form" or set of techniques. We will use and offer our students whatever works best, and is most "functional".

                              After all, I believe we at SBGi owe our students that.

                              It's time to step outside the mythology. If there is something in your OJKD curriculum that is missing, then show us against a resisting opponent. Show us against a fighter. If you cannot, and nobody else has any success either. . . .then you are simply attached to a method for reasons other then function. . .and that is a TRAP.

                              Have a good new year.
                              -Matt Thornton

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