JKD? Form must follow function.

[smartmonkey]

JKDBerlin, Feel free to re-post wherever you like. Please just leave the URL to the website when you do. www.straightblastgym.com

I used to live in Berlin, and it was always beautiful there this time of Year. It must be really nice right now.

take care
-Matt Thornton

https://www.straightblastgym.com

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Hmm.
Matt's background in JKD is very very similar to my own. More and more these days I'm shying away from the political aspects of JKD, but I am not too sure why so much heated debate always exists for it.

I'm going to say something that may or may not go over well. I think a big part of the problem is that Bruce was growing and changing at all times. There absolutely was a pre-73 "style" of "JKD" that Bruce had. At the time, Jun Fan JKD was Bruce's creation. It's base was wing chun, boxing, and fencing. There were certain structures to it, certain principles, etc.
Absolutely.

However, Bruce changed his idea of what "JKD" really meant as he got older. Bruce in a lot of ways gravitated more towards a "JKD concepts" approach as he got older because more and more he became disgusted and disillusioned with "structured ways" of fighting (whether they be his or someone else's).

I think Bruce constantly re-evaluated and adjusted his philosophies and ways of thinking as he improved his art. JKD to him was a lifestyle of constant growth, understanding, and evaluation.

I think some of this might leave two seperate schools of thought on the subject. (but that's just my opinion)
There was a time when "JKD" was a structured style. There was also a time after where it was not.


P.S. I wanted to mention too that just because someone takes the "concepts" approach doesn't mean he doesn't have a firm grasp of the Jun Fan system.

Ryu

[El Mastero]

Let me start out by saying that I have not had the priveledge of training in JKD but I've read alot about the subject and am always enlightened by members of forums such as these.

With that said I think people are getting stuck on the name "Jeet Kune Do". It's OJKD vs JKDC in every single post that talks about a different approach. Both approaches have merit and benefits one's mastery of self defense.

OJKD is Bruce's attempt at finding his way. It has a Wing Chun base with fencing footwork, savate and other MA tools. It has a clearly defined structure and principles. It's goal is to teach a no non-sense combat effective curriculum.

JKDC is an approach that put's more emphasis on the principles with less on the original foundation known as Jun Fan Gung Fu. It borrows from different martial arts and discards much of the original curriculum but keeps the same principles inorder to develop a no non-sense combat effective curriculum.

Both approaches will prepare you better for a street confrontation. They are two different approaches to same goal. Two subway trains that lead to the same terminal, which one will get you there quicker is up for debate.

Both approaches are shortcuts in a sense because you don't have to go out and master all of the different arts that make up Jeet Kune Do because it exists in the curriculum.

Now OJKD practitioners will say that their system is true to what Bruce Lee taught. It is combat effective. It is real Jeet Kune Do.

JKDC guys will say that their system is true to Bruce Lee's principles/concepts. It is combat effective. It is real Jeet Kune Do but evolved.

Now it all boils down to this. As a prospective student, what is your goal? If you say it is to learn JKD as Bruce taught it then you may want to learn OJKD. If you care less about what Bruce Lee taught directly but want to study a combat effective system then both OJKD and JKDC will have two different approaches to the same goal. It's up to the individual to decide which of the two, or more importantly, which instructor's curriculum appears to meet that criteria.

Personally, I wouldn't mind studying OJKD, JKDC, PFS, SBGI or whatever. Some of my main concerns would be:

1. "How close is his school to my house?"
2. "How much does he charge?"
3. "Is his curriculum combat effective?"
4. "What is his lineage?"

If it meets my criteria then I'm all for it. If it doesn't then I may have to find instruction elsewhere. It's up to each of us to decide for ourselves what it is that we want to get out of our training.

[Drew Howe]

As I read through various post here it has become very clear that not many have an understanding of JKD or what Bruce Lee was doing just prior to his death. One person that was training with Lee right up until his death was Ted Wong. I'm not going to speak for him, but for anyone that is curious what JKD was about, you should get in touch with Ted or one of his students.

Matt, I don't believe I made the comment that JKD was superior to SBGi or aliveness. I think we got a little sidetracked with that. Incidentally, Bruce Lee had a fair amount of aliveness training in JKD. Even many OJKD don't teach it this way anymore. Now, my point was never that JKD was better than what you do. My point was that if what you do is better, why hold on to the JKD name? Why associate yourself with JKD at all? Now, if I misunderstood something, then I'm sorry. But, it did seem from your post that you were holding on to the name JKD.

[Drew Howe]

Matt,

I had one other question. You believe that if it's better then show me. I respect that. My question is, has any of your guys been beaten by someone outside of SBGi? If so, did you switch to what that person was doing? If no, then why do you think your training was superior but the fighter was not?

I believe at some point we have to recognize that the individual has more to do with his individual success than the method he uses to achieve it.

[smartmonkey]

Regards this:

"Now, my point was never that JKD was better than what you do. My point was that if what you do is better, why hold on to the JKD name? Why associate yourself with JKD at all? Now, if I misunderstood something, then I'm sorry. But, it did seem from your post that you were holding on to the name JKD."


Well drew, that indeed is the whole point of the article. The article begins with this statement:

"Lee felt that a real fight was unpredictable and that most classical styles emphasized “dead patterns” instead of live and spontaneous training. Lee believed that combative sports such as boxing and judo were practiced more realistically than most classical systems. Why? They made real impact and they practiced live training and not dead patterns. Lee also came to the conclusion the MA was Universal and that “unless there is a being with more than two arms and two legs, that there is only one style of fighting, the human style.” So, Lee conceptualized martial art as a whole and embarked upon a scientific course. Not one that blended styles but one that was born of the idea of non-style, geometry and physics. One as he described as “simple, direct and non-classical” (functional). In a sense Lee’s JKD is a martial art with no rules that is practiced like a combative sport with real impact (full contact) and live training."


Now if you agree with that statement, then what i being offered as a paradigm of training is itself "JKD".

If you are training for reasons other then performance, then that's fine. But that's not what we are interested in.

As stated previously:

"It's like starting out with Karate stripping away all the entire curriculum keeping the principle's and adding Muay Thai. At some point it ceases to be Karate."


Yes, if one where to define JKD as another traditional Martial Art whose techniques where fixed in time, and beyond evolution, then you would be correct. And that is what Bruce Lee himself called a 'dead pattern'.

If one defines JKD as universal principles, then the understanding is there.


"I like your method though. I guess it would only matter to someone who wants to follow in Lee's footsteps and use the name (JKD) as a status symbol, as oppose to finding a combat effective system."


Excellent point, it depends on what one is truly after.

If it's performance within a specific field of operations, then form will follow function, and performance will dictate tactics & techniques.

If not, then who knows. Many simply like the attachment to a movie star, etc. It becomes an image one chases. And that is truly common in all things.

The main thing is you stay safe, and have fun along the way.

Have a good day

-Matt Thornton

https://www.straightblastgym.com

[smartmonkey]

Regards:

"I had one other question. You believe that if it's better then show me. I respect that. My question is, has any of your guys been beaten by someone outside of SBGi? If so, did you switch to what that person was doing? If no, then why do you think your training was superior but the fighter was not?"


Sure Drew, all the time. All athletes win and lose. But always by other athletes trained in the same FUNCTIONAL DELIVERY SYSTEMS.

There is a very importnat reason for that fact Drew.

take care
-Matt Thornton

https://www.straightblastgym.com

[robertlee]

JKD is JKD

Reading the posts just prior. .What Bruce said and what Bruce evolved to was JKd. But it was the method of his research his Idea of what he fitted in. Then what made it alive was thru sparr with protective gear. . So clearly said if you truely read the statement. Unless one has more then 2 arms 2 legs. So by combining modified wing chun. western boxing , fence fottwrok and concepts of the fencing. for use with the body action as the weapon. THen that was JKD. Not to be set in granite. It was what he viewed as a way that worked for him. And he taught it to the students of JKD. Thru sparring you found the personal use. But True JKD lies In what Bruce did. And taught. Now personal JKD that adds concepts Is extended. Or just concepts. And It helps many become better. Every art has a method of training And freedom in doing. Sbg jkd can be looked as . a extended jkd with excerpts of the applied arts. Ojkd holds true to the teachings that bruce passed down. THe only thing for it to remain alive Is the Open and sparring sessions to be a good part Of avanceed training after fudimental basics. As long as the person tries then they learn. How good they get is up to them. A good gym good kwoon Is there to help find the way not any more then that.

[smartmonkey]

Robert, just to be clear regarding this statement:

"Then what made it alive was thru sparr with protective gear."


When we speak of Aliveness we are not talking about "sparring", although there is plenty of that. We are speaking about a specific method of training which puts PERFORMANCE within a given theater of operations first and foremost.

Without an understanding of what that Alive training looks like one would struggle within the process of evolution. And this is of course what happened to much of the jkd community, and many other traditional martial arts.

take care
-Matt Thornton

https://www.straightblastgym.com

[Drew Howe]

Excellent point, it depends on what one is truly after.

If it's performance within a specific field of operations, then form will follow function, and performance will dictate tactics & techniques.

So, your JKD is better than what Bruce created? His original techniques, Pre-73 JKD, are no good because fighting is somehow different now then it was 30 years ago? Or, in your opinion, did Bruce Lee's techniques suck then too? I'm just trying to figure out what you are trying to say. I don't understand how you could follow the concepts of a guy for whom you feel had poor execution in style. Of course that would be true only if fighting hasn't changed in the last 30 years...which I guess it has. I guess I'm clueless. Anyone else confused. Well, back to Enter the Dragon and the yellow jump suit for me.

[Drew Howe]

Robert, just to be clear regarding this statement:

"Then what made it alive was thru sparr with protective gear."


When we speak of Aliveness we are not talking about "sparring", although there is plenty of that. We are speaking about a specific method of training which puts PERFORMANCE within a given theater of operations first and foremost.

Without an understanding of what that Alive training looks like one would struggle within the process of evolution. And this is of course what happened to much of the jkd community, and many other traditional martial arts.

take care
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com

But, for $29.00 he can show us the error of our ways.

[smartmonkey]

Try reading the article again Drew, it's very simple. Form must follow function. If there is a more functional way for the majority of humans to defend themselves within a given range, and field of operations, and you reject it because it's not what "bruce Lee", or any other icon "did", then that is not just silly, it is indeed the opposite of what Mr Lee advocated.



So if you believe that "jkd" method you advocate to be as functionnal, or more so, then COME SHOW US.


Otherwise it's just more Martial Arts mythology. And the world has enough of that.

Regards:

"Of course that would be true only if fighting hasn't changed in the last 30 years...which I guess it has. I guess I'm clueless."

You just might be Drew. There have been some major changes, in case you have not noticed. The advent of MMA fighting has created athletes who are in shape, functional at all ranges, and very dangerous.

Why not visit an MMA gym and test your OJKD out on them?

You would be better off to find you need work in many areas in that environment, then you would one day in the street when someone is really trying to hurt you.

Have a good new year.
-Matt Thornton

https://www.straightblastgym.com

[smartmonkey]

"But, for $29.00 he can show us the error of our ways."


Drew, if you cannot hold a logical conversation regarding training methods, then don't resort to misguided notions of peoples motives whom you have never met. It will only reflect poorly on your own personal character.

You have a free pass to the SBGi anytime. Come in, and test you material first hand with us. We wont charge you a thing.

I hope you have a good new year, and take care.
-Matt Thornton

https://www.straightblastgym.com

[BIG Sean Madigan]

$29 comment

Drew,

You wrote: But, for $29.00 he can show us the error of our ways.

Bro, I am in New York and I am affiliated with SBGi. You are more than welcome to come down, for free, and train with us at any time. This is not a threat, this truly is an open invitation for you, and or any other OJKD person to come down and train with us for free. Give me a call at 917-509-9008 to set it up if you like.

[robertlee]

Would you be refuring to good hard resistive training. Finding what works and why it works . then on to open spar to further test the use of the training. That method has been around along time for some. But you are right several have give it up. Because alot of students want to learn without the bumps and bruises. Then the ones that want to go futher are less in numbers. Ive seen that over the years. And MixedM/a now is creating a method of testing the water. It boils down to what type of students you take on and how its presented to them to get them to push harder to learn more. The say boxer knows he has to push harder to get better. Any contact training has to go the extra mile. Bruce went the extra mile to improve his self. And your right If more say JKD people pushed the extra mile they would do better at what they did. Just as say You have found away to train that gives the results you want. And are still looking to improve that. Hey thats great and will help the m/a groups. The idea can bleed to improved JKD training. Just as the past improved other arts by applieing jkd methods of application. But leaving the art in tact. Let me ask you this do you think that if you applied the training methods of sbg to lets say OJKD and left intact the jkd training tools WOULD it help improve somes JKD. If yes then its good. Why because ANY method that is a good method will help other methods if applied in aprouch. JKD has helped for years to let others see a way to improve on there art.. But true agin not as many will train as hardas they did in the past. And some today train harder then others in the past. THe future holds perhaps a better key. But owes the past respect too. AND JKD or any one art . Never had the answers Or just that art would survive. Perhaps your method is more rounded then Say JKD . I say good And if I was younger I would look futher into what you and sbg could do to help me improve more. But Im not so I will stay In JKD and continue trying to keep an open mind to improve by. I still think JKD has a future. AS long as its not abandoned and trained right. Good luck in spreading your method. And if it helps others its good.