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for those just curious check out this interesting topic.
this should help clear a lot
this should help clear a lot
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El Mastero, yes we spar individual ranges all the time.
Regards Vunaks post. That was originaly posted on a PFS forum, and my response, which was also on the forum is here.
Have a good night.
Hello all,
I don't get online much but saw this thread and figured I should respond.
First, thanks Paul for the kind words. Often people attempt to stir the pot between Paul and I, but always miss the mark.
I have always given Paul a lot of credit. Paul has probably brought more people to JKD the any other Instructor. His charisma and articulate instruction remains a magnet for the up and coming JKD talent.
That said, what others don't get is the concept of mutual respect. I respect Paul, (and like him), but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he does, and vice versa. Is that not what Paul, Mr. Inosanto, and Bruce have said over and over.
I wish to accurately reflect the background out of which what is now known as the SBG came from.
For the last four or five years the only "JKD" Instructors I have trained with have been Burton Richardson (the man who gave the SBG its weapons curriculum), and my friends Egan Inoue, and BJJ Coach Chris Haueter. Although I have worked with all kinds of other coaches.
It's during these last five Years that are curriculum evolved to what we have presently, and the biggest credit for that belongs to my BJJ Coaches, Rigan Machado, Chris Haueter, Rick Williams, and my clinch coaches, training partners and friends, Randy Couture, and Dan Henderson.
Specifically, it was after training with Couture that I realized how lacking our curriculum was in the clinch department. To put it bluntly, Randy owned me there. But then, the clinch is his first language, (although he is now fluent on the ground as well, and can converse nicely standing). As most of you know boxing and stand up is my first language, I feel fluent on the ground, but I am barely conversing in the clinch, (then again look at who I am dealing with!) One of the biggest misconceptions was that what Dan and Randy do is for "big guys".
For those of you who don't know Henderson, he is 190 on a good day. I would call him an average guy. Here is a funny story to illustrate my point, I have a HUGE juice monkey student that occasionally wanders in to try and kick my ass, or the ass of whomever is teaching. He is a good body to work on so we keep him around for us. He was at that time probably 285lbs of raw muscle and as Randy would say "possessed idiot strength". Anyway, he wanders in and sees Dan training for Pride. "Who is that little Mexican dude" he asks me. "Oh, that's just Dan, one of the guys from Ca, why don't you jump in and toss him around a bit". So this 285lb creature takes off his shirt and jumps in with Henderson, all 185-190 lbs. of him. You can guess the results. . . .Henderson literally threw him back and forth across the ring, and tapped him standing at least 12 times, until this guy could take no more. So the point of the story is that the clinch is not for "big men" it's for everyone, but yes it's hard.
It has to be trained much like BJJ, you have to get in and pummel, just like you need to roll on the mat. No drill can ever substitute for that. Does anyone still believe you could ever reach even a blue belt level in BJJ by doing only drills? To reach a competitive blue belt level you need hundreds of hours of sparring time. The clinch is no different.
Anyone who knows me knows I play and Coach a small mans game. In fact, if you ask Rigan now I am sure he will tell you he wished I played a slower, bigger mans top game more often then I do, especially in competition! Same goes for my boxing, I have never been a slugger or trader as I hate getting hit in the face, (just one of those things).
To see the SBG stand up game in action look no further then Rodney King, all 170lbs of him. Check out his upcoming video set to see what I consider to be the best stand up fighter in JKD right now. And the clinch--guys, I wish I could play a big mans game in the clinch! Have you seen the guys I have to train with? If I tried for even a moment to out muscle the likes of Couture he would have me smashed on my head quicker then you could say lop sau!
I have an open Gym policy and anyone wondering about my ability can wander in at anytime and see just how Big that game is or isn't. And that's where things like that should be done, in the Gym, not on the Internet. That's one of the reasons I have always admired my friend Burton Richardson, he always shows "class." A great fighter should be a gentleman and a family man as well.
In regards certification, or teaching methods. The proof is in the performance of my students. And performance of my students is the only "certification" that counts, or ever matters.
One of my best fighters, Greg Piper, who has fought pro Shooto in Japan, and is now a pro boxer with an undefeated record, is 130lbs and that's after he eats at taco bell and downs a six pack of Pepsi. Ask him how to perform as a little guy and he will tell you that you have to train the same stuff the big guys do--its just harder, and you must work harder, and hustle more. No magic bullets, wish there was. Greg regularly trained with me (220lbs), as well Nathen 190, Robert 190, Couture 230, etc. He survives and does well, and when he fights a guy his own size--pheeewww--he feels like he just won the lottery!
In regards to drills, I simply have a different take. I think I have explained it a thousand times, but people still misunderstand.
Here is a post I found on the Internet by someone named 'kev' that I think accurately reflects the ideas:
"As has been said before--flow drills are artificial--the very fact that they flow shows that the energy is unrealistic. The fact that you are repeating sequences is artificial.
Those in favor of flow drills believe that flow drills get a lot of reps in. But the alive training will get in just as high of "rep-rate"-- but done in a more alive manner. And instead of concentrating on some pattern--you get to think out of the box (pattern?)
Pro-flow guys argue that as you progress in a drill like "Hubud"--you begin to add additional strikes, dumog, sweeps, throws, etc... Thereby making Hubud more beneficial. Well--you do that with alive training too--but you have the added benefit of working those things in against an opponent who is progressively adding resistance done in a free-form way.
So--in my opinion, you get all of the benefits of the "flow type" training-- but with some big pluses! What's the down side of the "alive training" anyway?"
Nice post, you may agree or disagree. Doesn't matter, it's simply a different way to approach the same goal.
And as I have said a million times--I didn't invent it, or claim to have invented it, I just make it my main message because I feel its that important.
Finally, in regards "self perfection", let me be as clear as possible. My version, or approach to self-perfection exists in a term I am going to borrow from my good friend Luis G, it exists in a "still point". Did you ever wonder why Rickson was so friggin good? There is a lot of great black belts, but Rickson is--different. For lack of a better term, he has a still point he finds when he is in motion. He is all there. Luis and I have talked about how great deep-sea divers, surfers, gymnasts, all have similar traits. To me that's self-perfection. Rickson found that, by his own admission, in Jiu-Jitsu. While rolling around on the mat against a resisting opponent. Sometimes, if only for second in time, I find that synchronicity also. And that, to me, is self-perfection through Martial Arts. I can still do BJJ, clinch, everything else, as I age. Just at a different level of intensity. But, whatever the intensity, I can still find that "still point" provided what I am doing is ALIVE.
Anyway, hope all of you are well, and hope to train with many of you someday. Thanks again Paul, you are a true pioneer. Nice to hear from you Tom. And everyone remember--any issues you have with me can be discussed by contacting me directly. I am not hard to reach or find.
I have been on this bloody computer to long! I have a warm bed and gorgeous girl waiting for me--see ya!
-Matt ThorntonComment
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We are working on an Aliveness Q&A for our website which will answer all the questions, and comments people make over and over, point by point. That should help clear up much of the persistent confusion.At least for those sincere. And it will also save on lots of redundent typing.
Enjoy the day.
-Matt Thornton
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I look forward to reading it when it's posted. Thanks.Originally posted by smartmonkeyComment
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It's also worth noting that both the post by Paul Vunak, and my own response are almost four Years old now.
Since that time our training methods and athletes at SBGi have only gotten better. It's been a great four Years!
It's not uncommon to have people try and label, or box in what we do. But being labeled a MMA Organization could not be farther from the truth. It is true some of our athletes compete in those arenas and do well, and we have both pro/am teams. However, they make up less then 2% of SBGi's membership rosters. The fact that what we do works in that arena is a nice side affect of fully Alive training.
Most people train with us for health, self defense, and pure fun. In addition we have seperate programs for Law Enforcement, and children.
Check out www.isrmatrix.org for info on such a program
Aliveness is for every-BODY.
Have a great evening.
-Matt Thornton
Hello all,
I don't get online much but saw this thread and figured I should respond.
First, thanks Paul for the kind words. Often people attempt to stir the pot between Paul and I, but always miss the mark.
I have always given Paul a lot of credit. Paul has probably brought more people to JKD the any other Instructor. His charisma and articulate instruction remains a magnet for the up and coming JKD talent.
That said, what others don't get is the concept of mutual respect. I respect Paul, (and like him), but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he does, and vice versa. Is that not what Paul, Mr. Inosanto, and Bruce have said over and over.
I wish to accurately reflect the background out of which what is now known as the SBG came from.
It's during these last six Years that are curriculum evolved to what we have presently, and the biggest credit for that belongs to my BJJ Coaches, Rigan Machado, Chris Haueter, Rick Williams, and my clinch coaches, training partners and friends, Randy Couture, and Dan Henderson.
Specifically, it was after training with Couture that I realized how lacking our curriculum was in the clinch department. To put it bluntly, Randy owned me there. But then, the clinch is his first language, (although he is now fluent on the ground as well, and can converse nicely standing). As most of you know boxing and stand up is my first language, I feel fluent on the ground, but I am barely conversing in the clinch, (then again look at who I am dealing with!) One of the biggest misconceptions was that what Dan and Randy do is for "big guys".
For those of you who don't know Henderson, he is 190 on a good day. I would call him an average guy. Here is a funny story to illustrate my point, I have a HUGE juice monkey student that occasionally wanders in to try and kick my ass, or the ass of whomever is teaching. He is a good body to work on so we keep him around for us. He was at that time probably 285lbs of raw muscle and as Randy would say "possessed idiot strength". Anyway, he wanders in and sees Dan training for Pride. "Who is that little Mexican dude" he asks me. "Oh, that's just Dan, one of the guys from Ca, why don't you jump in and toss him around a bit". So this 285lb creature takes off his shirt and jumps in with Henderson, all 185-190 lbs. of him. You can guess the results. . . .Henderson literally threw him back and forth across the ring, and tapped him standing at least 12 times, until this guy could take no more. So the point of the story is that the clinch is not for "big men" it's for everyone, but yes it's hard.
It has to be trained much like BJJ, you have to get in and pummel, just like you need to roll on the mat. No drill can ever substitute for that. Does anyone still believe you could ever reach even a blue belt level in BJJ by doing only drills? To reach a competitive blue belt level you need hundreds of hours of sparring time. The clinch is no different.
To see the SBG stand up game in action look no further then Rodney King, all 170lbs of him. Check out his upcoming video set to see what I consider to be the best stand up fighter in JKD right now. And the clinch--guys, I wish I could play a big mans game in the clinch! Have you seen the guys I have to train with? If I tried for even a moment to out muscle the likes of Couture he would have me smashed on my head quicker then you could say lop sau!
I have an open Gym policy and anyone wondering about my ability can wander in at anytime and see just how Big that game is or isn't. And that's where things like that should be done, in the Gym, not on the Internet. That's one of the reasons I have always admired my friend Burton Richardson, he always shows "class." A great fighter should be a gentleman and a family man as well.
In regards certification, or teaching methods. The proof is in the performance of my students. And performance of my students is the only "certification" that counts, or ever matters.
One of my best fighters, Greg Piper, who has fought pro Shooto in Japan, and is now a pro boxer with an undefeated record, is 130lbs and that's after he eats at taco bell and downs a six pack of Pepsi. Ask him how to perform as a little guy and he will tell you that you have to train the same stuff the big guys do--its just harder, and you must work harder, and hustle more. No magic bullets, wish there was. Greg regularly trained with me (220lbs), as well Nathen 190, Robert 190, Couture 230, etc. He survives and does well, and when he fights a guy his own size--pheeewww--he feels like he just won the lottery!
In regards to drills, I simply have a different take. I think I have explained it a thousand times, but people still misunderstand.
Here is a post I found on the Internet by someone named 'kev' that I think accurately reflects the ideas:
"As has been said before--flow drills are artificial--the very fact that they flow shows that the energy is unrealistic. The fact that you are repeating sequences is artificial.
Those in favor of flow drills believe that flow drills get a lot of reps in. But the alive training will get in just as high of "rep-rate"-- but done in a more alive manner. And instead of concentrating on some pattern--you get to think out of the box (pattern?)
Pro-flow guys argue that as you progress in a drill like "Hubud"--you begin to add additional strikes, dumog, sweeps, throws, etc... Thereby making Hubud more beneficial. Well--you do that with alive training too--but you have the added benefit of working those things in against an opponent who is progressively adding resistance done in a free-form way.
So--in my opinion, you get all of the benefits of the "flow type" training-- but with some big pluses! What's the down side of the "alive training" anyway?"
Nice post, you may agree or disagree. Doesn't matter, it's simply a different approach.
And as I have said a million times--I didn't invent it, or claim to have invented it, I just make it my main message because I feel its that important.
Finally, in regards "self perfection", let me be as clear as possible. My version, or approach to self-perfection exists in a term I am going to borrow from my good friend Luis G, it exists in a "still point". Did you ever wonder why Rickson was so friggin good? There is a lot of great black belts, but Rickson is--different. For lack of a better term, he has a still point he finds when he is in motion. He is all there. Luis and I have talked about how great deep-sea divers, surfers, gymnasts, all have similar traits. To me that's self-perfection. Rickson found that, by his own admission, in Jiu-Jitsu. While rolling around on the mat against a resisting opponent. Sometimes, if only for second in time, I find that synchronicity also. And that, to me, is self-perfection through Martial Arts. I can still do BJJ, clinch, everything else, as I age. Just at a different level of intensity. But, whatever the intensity, I can still find that "still point" provided what I am doing is ALIVE.
Anyway, hope all of you are well, and hope to train with many of you someday. Thanks again Paul, you are a true pioneer. Nice to hear from you Tom. And everyone remember--any issues you have with me can be discussed by contacting me directly. I am not hard to reach or find.
-Matt ThorntonComment
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Hi Matt
Thanks a lot, took it
Where and when did you live in Berlin?
GreetingsComment
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You should open a gym in northern new jersey (Newark area) because we got mostly boxing gyms and regular martial arts classesOriginally posted by smartmonkeyComment
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Hi JKDBerlin,
I wish I could remember the exact street address of my apartment, but I lived around the corner from Clay compound in what was the American sector. I was there a Year and half before the wall came down, and missed that party by about 6 Months. I loved the city, food, nightlife, pubs, people, etc. Berlin is a very cool place!
Cboog, we have a great SBGi Gym in New Jersey, contact Paul Myatovich at paul@aresandagon.net for directions, or 609.977.8966
I am not sure how close to you he will be? But regardless he may have some good places for you to check out, or people up there.
-Matt Thornton
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How about an SBG near St. Louis Missouri? or within say a 5 hour drive. I really would like to check out what you all are doing but funds are low since I took on this new gym.Comment
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I believe the heart of the debating point between you and Drew is expressed by the statement in your post, Matt:
"Outsiders to the community see it more easily, but find no need for the label of 'jkd'."
The "outsiders" see no need for the label because they don't see it as "JKD". Only as a logical training methodoligy. It is only in the so-called "JKD community" that you see the clinging to the name.
This gets to the very heart of the OJKD/JKDC rift.
If you take this article and remove all the JKD references, most MMA people will say, "So what?" "You're stating the obvious."
Right?
It's only when you add "JKD" to the mix that you get a stir.
There's always going to be a contention regarding these approaches. That is the legacy of JKD.Comment
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Hi MattOriginally posted by smartmonkey
So you lived in Zehlendorf If you enjoyed the nightlife by that time, did you ever went to a three story discothek/concert club by the name of ECSTASY in Schoeneberg/Hauptstrasse? If so, you've been to my club and it possible we've meet before, 'cause I worked on the door Anyway, thanks for the article!
GreetsComment
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That club sounds very familiar, but I cannot honestly say if I have been there or not. That was a long time ago, and I was usually drinking at that time as well. : )
I do remember a large club called the Metro at the end of Kuferstendam that I would go to occasionaly. I also saw it was the main backdrop for Dario Argenta's movie 'demons'. That was a pretty cool place.
That brings back a lot of memories. Berlin definitly rocks!
take care
-Matt Thornton
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If you ever want to come back for holiday, just let me know and we set something up
GreetingsComment
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A couple things. First, I did not read the whole thread. Second, I think Matt is displaying incredible patience and tact while speaking directly and truthfully. Third, Can you imagine a group of guys who practice basketball together and come up with a unique style of basketball without actually playing any games? Can you imagine how skewed the techniques and drills of basketball could become if you didn't allow anyone to actually guard you when you did your basketball techniques? What do you think would happen if, after years of developing plays and ways to get around defenders, if this team that has never even scrimmaged with another team actually had to play a real game? Seriously. What would happen to a "team" that only drilled lay-ups, free-throws, and plays without anyone really guarding them if they suddenly found themselves on a court against a group of guys who play every weekend? They wouldn't know how to handle the pressure because they have never practiced with that kind of pressure. Same with our training. If you don't actually practice the game the way it is really played, you will never ever know what really does work. You will base your art in MYSTICISM and simply BELIEVE that it will work without any evidence. Matt and I base our training and coaching on SCIENCE so that we TEST everything in real world conditions so that we don't have to just believe that a technique or tactic works, we KNOW it works. Aloha!Comment
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I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say, Burton.
Are you saying that through the history of JKD, no one has been playing the "real game" but you and Matt?
I'm sure that's not what you meant, but it sure sounds like it. Please tell me I'm wrong here.
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