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  • #16
    Hungrywolf, I think you can edit your original post and rename the subject/thread. Better idea on the thread name, BTW.

    Quietanswer, I think they are all important. Actually, we all train a basic version of everything to start. Than pay attention to striking on certain days, clinching on others, ground on others, but generally the guys know when I've got a certain theme in mind. For example, during the month, while we are training it all, they know that I may be really pushing striking on them, because most guys that they will fight here in Hawaii will start standing up and up with them, so being comfortable against a striker is what I push more so that being a striker at first. Etc., etc., I'll write more in a little, gotta get back to work.

    I do think that the clinch is a strong foundation of the three, though, because a strong clinch links that striking and ground cans can work into either with superior positioning if the clinch is strong.

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    • #17
      I don't think that striking is more important than knowing HOW to strike properly. And again, training in boxing teaches much more important things than striking skills. Things like movement, proximity sense, evasiveness, footwork (very important), balance while striking, defense, and how handle yourself better while taking a punch. Anybody can get inside of someone else's punches and grapple around. In fact, wrestling with someone who is trying to take your head off is instictive. I am all for learning how to grapple, but striking can end a fight faster than grappling (in most cases). Besides, you don't really want to have to hold someone in a submission hold while their buddies come to help them out or while they stab you over and over with a knife. I suggest that you visit Tony Blauer's website @ http://www.tonyblauer.com and read his opinions on the grappling/striking argument. He is all for training in all ranges, but he puts a lot of emphasis on striking, attached and unattached.

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      #18
      hm..if I submit someone, it doesn't take time, wolf. I wouldn't submit him while his friends came around, or while he stabbed me...his first hip movement/arm movement to attack me would result in a badly broken limb..why submit when you can break?

      I agree, boxing teaches movement and defense and all of that. I guess that's why i was for wrestling as well...as it teaches these items as well..

      I guess we all believe in starting in different place. my argument isn't NO boxing..I just guess I prefer the wrestling vehicle for instruction ina ll four games.

      but i'm always open to more ideas.

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      • #19
        That's really what it's all about anyway. Finding what works for you and being open to other things out there.

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        • #20
          Originally posted by quietanswer

          But I saw the Randy Coutre versus..uh..Vitor Belfort fight.. to sum up (if you haven't seen this one yet) vitor was believed to be an excellent boxer

          Coutre was a greco roman national champ of several clubs, has his own wrestling school and a few other accolades. He too is big and agile..
          [Edited by quietanswer on 12-20-2000 at 09:13 AM]
          I don't think Randy Couture is too big a guy, his picture is up at the Straight Blast Gym site next to Matt, and while Matt is tall, you can see the difference in size.

          I think Randy dominated the fight because of a good clinch game, which I think also helps in playing a good on-top guard game. Randy is one of my favorite fighters to watch, next to TK and Maurice.

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            • #21
            Hm. I guess size is relative.

            Randy was listed in the fight as going 222, I believe. Maybe that was just at the time. he was 6'2 as wel, I think..I could have that wrong..I saw it last night though.

            From my limited perspective, that's a pretty big guy..considering he's muscle, not flab, and very skilled..

            but I can see why you might feel he's not so big, being that you're fairly big yourself, chad.

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            • #22
              Most important to train for what modality? NHB has it's area's, street has it's areas, Thai boxing has it's areas. While there may be a great deal of overlap amoung these areas each demands a slightly different approach to be successful.

              Randy did well against Vitor for several reasons: He learned the golden rule for fighting a south-paw boxer- stay outside his lead foot and circle to the jab hand. This is boxig fundamentals at it's finest. By the time they went to the clinch Randy had tested Vitor's conditioning and managed to fatigue him some. He dictated the clinch and ground game and won the fight with boxing skills (oddly enough).

              2 primary factors lead to failure in fighting: Lack of conditioning and lack of familiarity in a given range/situation. Train for everything shore up your weak points and accentuate your strengths.

              TKOU

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              • #23
                You're right QA, I forgot that Matt is a tall guy.

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                • #24
                  quietanswer

                  Funny you should mention that Couture fight because that and Matt Thornton's functional jkd series are half the reason I fight the way I do. The fight was a perfect example of what I was talking about. Couture decided when that fight went to the ground and when it went back to the feet and then outboxed a boxer by using his clinch skills. That's one of my favorite fights. Couture has good skills in all areas, he's well rounded and he's really good in the clinch. Combine that with his physical attributes and you've got a great fighter (recent win over Kevin Randleman is a good example).

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                    • #25
                    right o!

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                    • #26
                      I believe that the CLINCH is the most important range as it is the LINk between the Stand-up range and the ground.

                      If you DON'T want to go to the ground, master the clinching range. If you DO, master the clinching range. See my point?

                      Look at Dan Henderson. He's a great example of a wrestler (and many more of them are doing this) who seems to prefer to keep a fight standing up. He's got GREAT control from the clinch and can defend takedowns from there. (I've not even mentioned Randy Couture's skills!!)


                      If you have a great standing game, control from the clinch will help to KEEP you there!



                      Good training!
                      John

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                      • #27
                        Twisted up, I totally agree with you on Henderson. A lot of people think that he lost his fights against Allan Goes and Carlos Newton. And while Newton and Goes are both bad dudes I'm convinced that given the chance they both wanted to fight on the ground and Henderson denied them that chance, which means, even though he took a pounding, he controlled the range and dished out a pounding as well. So I can see why the judges gave the fight to him and it goes to show just how important the clinch is. I consider it the core or nucleus of the fight.

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                          • #28
                          Ok...so those of you that study the clinch in your training, how do _you_ do it? Do you use greco drills/concepts, bjj? Shootfighting? I'm not sure even who to name..high school wrestling had some clinch work, similar to greco, except for the all important factor of being able to use your legs for techniques..

                          So how do you guys train the clinch on your clinch workout days?

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                          • #29
                            We do lots of positional clinching, just fighting for control positions, or we might add in moves like the duck-under and snap-down and standing submissions, then train it with strikes and takedowns thrown in. We pretty much spar in the clinch but isolate certain areas and move up in a progressive manner. See the clinch structure thread on the BJJ forum.

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                              • #30
                              that's pretty much what we've been doing. we haven't been working in punches though..just trying for positional dominance in the clinch..to get a grip for a throw or to just control the others guy weight in general.

                              we don't concentrate on this area massively though. I think maybe we should. for a while, at least.

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