When to cross the line into violence

[Tant01]

When to step over the line is the subject and understanding various levels of force is all well and good but not necessarily the best advise in my own opinion. Here's why; The threat level can change instantaniously. If you train to match force levels you might get caught in the verbal stage while your attacker has moved into killing you stage...

It will be very important to be able to articulate well why you thought it was "reasonable" to kill (attack) him first while he was in the verbal stage...

Cops usually get (really) scared when they "think" a guy has a gun, and if they belive it they can kill the guy even if it turns out he wasn't armed at all.

[eXcessiveForce]

laws in commonwealths vary quite a bit from noncommonweath states. You also would need to look at case law to determine what type of precidents have been set before you could rely on the idea that you were acting within the law.

I prefaced my statement as an approach to avoid legal trouble. (this does not mean not being arrested, it means not being convicted of anything.) Even this may not keep you from facing civil charges and paying.

sometimes avoiding legal trouble is not the main concern, but rather safety.

At what point do you get to cross the line? At the moment that you feel you cannot escape and that it is beyond de-escalation. Note: you can start an altercation at any level.

[darrianation]

First and foremost “Often the winner of the fight will be the one who is willing to escalate the violence the furthest the fastest”!

You guessed it; this puts us good guys at a grave disadvantage in the street. We don’t escalate fast enough we will be making a trip to the ICU or the morgue. If we escalate to fast we can be making a trip to the state penitentiary.

MR. Thai Bri said the best thing to do is “Run, Hide, play dead” I am paraphrasing here but he is very correct if this works you have successfully defended yourself, if this fails you know he is committed to killing you or causing great bodily harm. Now you need to take the appropriate action to defend yourself in the deadly force category.

[Tant01]

Every martial artist needs to know the laws of their home state (or commonwealth) The internet is full of all kinds of good stuff for folks to learn about very important details of using force. Packing dot org comes to mind as does Mark (Animal) MackYoung, in fact http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/lethalforce.html Go read!

Excessive force is okay in my book! I'm not one to run away from a fight and I think martial artists that lean towards retreat are selling themselves short. I'm not saying go look for it and you must be able to soundly judge if you're in over your head. No one is bullet proof! But there is no honor in "Cobb's traverse". What the heck are "martial" arts for anyways? Granted running away is good general advise for anyone facing danger but last time I checked, predators like the flight response more than the fight response.

[brokenelbow]

I think we can end up teaching people to be over cautious when their moment comes up by frightening them with all of the legalities or giving them ladders of escalation. But you have to make sure that checks are put in place so they're not going out looking for a fight. It's really a balancing act to make them aware of what could happen but to also make sure that they know that they have a right to defend themselves. It's not easy stuff.

[eXcessiveForce]

This is true, I prefer to tell my students about opportunity cost.


For instance, where I grew up the used to call a beating the crap out of someone your $25 option. The fine was 25 bucks. So all you had to do was decide if it was worth 25 bucks.


Now, it still the same? is it worth going to jail for a couple days, a week, a month, a year. As long as they know what can happen they can make the choice whether it is worth the cost.

I told a kid whose friend had stolen things out of my car one night that when I ran into him, i'd be sure to get my moneys worth out of him. To which he replied, you can't your an adult. I asked him why he though that would mean I couldn't beat this other kid. And he said, you would go to jail. I said sure I might go to jail, but that's my option isn't it. It won't help your friend, he still gets beat. I had my stuff back in less than 30 minutes and an apology.

People have to decide though if they are all in or all out, it's the place in the middle that gets people hurt.

[darrianation]

Every martial artist needs to know the laws of their home state (or commonwealth) The internet is full of all kinds of good stuff for folks to learn about very important details of using force. Packing dot org comes to mind as does Mark (Animal) MackYoung, in fact http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/lethalforce.html Go read!

Excessive force is okay in my book! I'm not one to run away from a fight and I think martial artists that lean towards retreat are selling themselves short. I'm not saying go look for it and you must be able to soundly judge if you're in over your head. No one is bullet proof! But there is no honor in "Cobb's traverse". What the heck are "martial" arts for anyways? Granted running away is good general advise for anyone facing danger but last time I checked, predators like the flight response more than the fight response.

Look a fight is dangerous and can turn deadly at any moment even if it started simply by looking in the direction of some drunk at a bar. Skilled or not you cannot predict what’s going to happen.

I am a SD instructor and train a hell of a lot with knives. I see it all the time in ecqb live drills even very experienced martial artists get stabbed, if they weren’t training knives even I would be in the ER at least once a week and many of my experienced students and visiting martial artists would be dead. Plain and simply it isn't worth it.

As a paramedic I have seen many, I mean many simple assaults turn deadly. I have seen martial artists who thought they were fighting gods get their asses kicked when the assaulter pulled his weapon or his buddies jumped in.

I teach my students to use their heads, use proper prevention and personal security plans, awareness, risk assessment skills, de-escalation skills and retreat if safe to do so. If it isn't safe to do so then and only then turn physical.

We work live realistic scenarios to help them make better tactical decisions if a bad situation were to arise. I teach them how a criminal selects his victim, how he will approach, and how he will attack. If you have been unaware enough to be selected as a victim you will be at a great disadvantage.

The only reason you should be involved in a physical confrontation is that all else has failed despite your reasonable attempts of avoidance and you are now fighting someone who has intent. This can end with someone seriously hurt or dead regardless of skill level!

[Tant01]

"The only reason you should be involved in a physical confrontation is that all else has failed despite your reasonable attempts of avoidance and you are now fighting someone who has intent. This can end with someone seriously hurt or dead regardless of skill level!"


Agreed! No one is bullet proof. There is a certain contradiction to martial arts. "It's dangerous and potentially deadly" No kidding? LOL Your post above you say

"Skilled or not you cannot predict what’s going to happen."

And then a bit further you say...

"We work live realistic scenarios to help them make better tactical decisions if a bad situation were to arise. I teach them how a criminal selects his victim, how he will approach, and how he will attack."

The fact is if you fight enough (or study the criminal element) you can predict, to some extent, what they will do. Count on them having deadly intent, count on them being armed, count on his friends comming to his rescue and train to deal with reality.

Paramedics are my buddies! Funny how they seem so calm when the shock is setting in... I've been stabbed twice.

[Oreomeister365]

I figure if the enemy either starts hurting someone (and the enemy didn't provoke it or start attacking him first) or has a fair chance of hurting someone.

In the case of attacking the enemy, I would go far enough to stop the person from doing what they are, only actually hurting them if I need to. And if I do hurt them, I'd give them a chance to get up and leave, if they choose to continue fighting, it's their loss.

[Tom Yum]

Would you cross the line if someone took your oreos ?

[jubaji]

So what goes into the decision to step up a non-physical confrontation to physical?

Alcohol mostly.

[Jeremy Lobdell]

Reasons to fight.

spill my beer, you're gonna pay!

[koto_ryu]

spill my beer, you're gonna pay!

Hell yah, spilling beer is alcohol abuse!