JKD vs Krav Maga?

[Cyclops]

Hardball, I understand you quoting Imi but I am not sure what your point is. Did he train members of the IDF in KM? if so, what is so wrong with it. KM is the official self defense of Israel, (although I am sure Haganah will eventually replace it) Is it taught to police/miltary there? if so how is it bad marketing?

[Hardball]

Hardball, I understand you quoting Imi but I am not sure what your point is. Did he train members of the IDF in KM? if so, what is so wrong with it. KM is the official self defense of Israel, (although I am sure Haganah will eventually replace it) Is it taught to police/miltary there? if so how is it bad marketing?

I'm neutral. I believe it's over promoted. Really, it probably belongs in the military tactics and techniques forumn.. give me your fax number and I'll fax you the article when I get some free time. Be sure to tell me which issue and which date of article you are referring to.

[Hardball]

I agree that k.m. shouldn't be immune to criticism but why be disrespectful? If you have information about it please share but being disrespectful doesn't really tell us anything useful.

When you are trying to build a name or a reputation, this tends to happen. See my thread in the military tactics forumn entitled "Definition of a Wannabee" One man's definition of disrespect is another man's constructive criticsisim. {sp} K.M. people are obviously out to build a reputation for themselves. Is that good or bad? Who knows? Just like Yin and Yang.

[Hardball]

I agree that k.m. shouldn't be immune to criticism but why be disrespectful? If you have information about it please share but being disrespectful doesn't really tell us anything useful.

Respect is something that is EARNED, and even though I don't consider myself disrespectful to k.m.............................If you really wanna make a name for yourself and your art then you have to go to the proving grounds, ie. ufc, pride, k-1 or the school of hard knocks. Theory is o.k. but practice is what makes reputations.

[Hardball]

and hardball, stating "Im objective" over and over again doesen't make it more true..

Objective means, it is supported by coorborrating evidence.

[Cain]

well, you are subjective and very far from neutral. And well, the thing is that Krav Maga is quite far from the mixed martial arts scene, and suggesting that krav maga is unfit for it's purpose beacause of it's lack of UFC/Pride-stars is just hype-ignorance. "if you're not in ufc, you suck".. The thing is that Krav Maga is not a sport, and well, I'm not doing the "ninjutsu is deadly, so we can't be in a ring"-thing, but we got to face it, people that join a krav maga club doesen't do that to be mma-experts.. naturally. Those who join a krav maga gym where I live are 1) police officers/security workers that need a no-bullshit approach to self defence. 2) rape victims that need the mental and the physical aspect of self defence both to protect themselves and to fix a few .. well.. issues. and 3) young guys that think it is cool..

Where i workout we have a combined mma/krav maga/thai-gym where you can cross-train as much as you like, and the quality of the instructors is supreme.. And when we have open classes the krav-maga guys hold their own both standup and on the ground.

[SamuraiGuy]

by Hardball:

10 principles:

strive for maximum versaltility

defend and attack simultaneously

never assume fight is over

train from positions of disadvantage

target vulnerable areas

let reality dictate your response

use intinctive movements

Exploit your environment

train to build sound tactics

Remember the most important rule--Don't get hurt.


I dont see anythign wrong with that, or anything you posted in your excerpts from those magazines... whats wrong with any of those points?

Second, nothing there proved Krav Maga claimed to have invented techniques that other arts already practiced.

(Remember I agreed with you, so has everyone, that Krav Maga does take alot of things from other arts)

Therefore thats no longer an issue, whether they market it as original is irrelevant when talking about how good/effective a style it is.


Krav Maga doesnt need to prove its effectiveness in the UFC because its not a sport martial art. Its reality based self defense, its been proved by the israeli army... for what it aims to do, protect you in street fights.

The reason you dont see people using Krav Maga in the UFC is because kicking someone in the groin 13 times as your first attack isnt allowed. Im not saying it would work in the UFC< but it has been proven to work with what its meant for.

Also, Krav Maga can be open to Critiscism like any other Martial Arts.. .they did steal things from other martial arts... so has every other martial art... next criticism?

[Hardball]

Nice discussion, any one wanna bring it to a close--how can we conclude this very intellectual and enlightening discussion?

[Cyclops]

Respect is something that is EARNED, and even though I don't consider myself disrespectful to k.m.............................If you really wanna make a name for yourself and your art then you have to go to the proving grounds, ie. ufc, pride, k-1 or the school of hard knocks. Theory is o.k. but practice is what makes reputations.

You won't see Krav in UFC because it was never designed for that. As far as hard knocks, perhaps you can speak to some members of the IDF as to how well it holds up there

As far as marketing goes, I think all MA's tend to market themselves as "the best" , etc...

[Cyclops]

Nice discussion, any one wanna bring it to a close--how can we conclude this very intellectual and enlightening discussion?

Yes it was a good discussion, howbeit, an off topic discussion. I believe the thread kinda got hijacked. The origional poster wanted to know the simularities between KM and JKD.

[Hardball]

Yes it was a good discussion, howbeit, an off topic discussion. I believe the thread kinda got hijacked. The origional poster wanted to know the simularities between KM and JKD.

We can just build on what we aready have.............................

[Maxx]

One thing that I have noticed in talking with a variety of people, both American and Israeli, is that it seems that Krav Maga as it is taught in Isreal is quite different than what is taught over here in the U.S.

A knew a gentleman several years ago who was a lieutenant in the Isreali Military. I got into a discussion with him regarding Krav Maga and he told me a couple of things that surprised me. He told me that Krav Maga is not much more than a few basic strategic concepts that are taught to Military personnel and are generally used in conjuction with a side arm. He did not know how to box, his kicking was not on a high level and most of what he did seemed to be based on getting enough distance so that he could shoot someone.

The Krav Maga that he demonstrated and discribed was also a last last resort to be used only when a soldier had been completely dissarmed. I could be mistakem, but I believe he said that Israeli Soldier generally carry 3 weapons: a Rifle, a side arm and a knife. His general attitude was that if you lost all three of your weapons, you probably would not be able to make the rudimentary principles work against someone who really wanted you dead and that if you were stupid enough to lose all your weapons you were a pretty shitty soldier.

The Krav Maga taught here in the states he described as being much more involved and elaborate that what military personnel were learning in Isreal and that the americanized version has a much greater infusion of kickboxing elements along iwth Kali, Muay Thai and BJJ.

I've only trained once or twice with a couple of people who were trained in Krav Maga in the US, but most of it resembles Muay Thai in my opinion. Many of their strategies are sound although not unique. I think it's a good system of self defense but at the same time it didn't strike me as being above and beyond what is generally available locally from a good school which specializes in self preservation training.

[Cyclops]

One thing that I have noticed in talking with a variety of people, both American and Israeli, is that it seems that Krav Maga as it is taught in Isreal is quite different than what is taught over here in the U.S.

I agree. A fellow Haganah student, told me that her girlfriend who is an Israeli that the military there when they train in Krav, it is much more "streamlined" There is of course a reason for that. Just like here in the U.S., solidiers are not given months and months of hand to hand instruction. Therefore, soldiers tend to just get the basics. Not much different then here. The logic being, soldiers have rifles, grenades, handguns and knives. and have armored vehicles mounted with machine guns, etc. It wouldnt make sense to spend more time on hand to hand defense, then say, rifle training or artillary training. It explains why it is used there in conjunction with a side arm. Also all military hand to hand training is "last resort" why else would someone choose hand to hand in war otherwise?

[Cyclops]

I've only trained once or twice with a couple of people who were trained in Krav Maga in the US, but most of it resembles Muay Thai in my opinion. Many of their strategies are sound although not unique. I think it's a good system of self defense but at the same time it didn't strike me as being above and beyond what is generally available locally from a good school which specializes in self preservation training.

There is a good reason for that as well, There are two main MA in Israel not counting Haganah. Krav Maga and Hisardut. Hisardut is pretty much the Israeli version of MT. Thats the best way I can describe it. Although Hisardut in its true form also incorperates grappling which MT doesnt. But they are very similar.

[Tant01]

Hello,

Is anyone familiar with Krav Maga? Could you describe some of the similarities and differences in technique/training/philosophy?

Thanks.

In the Jeet Kune Do you will learn to TEST your tools against (a) resisting opponent(s). For instance if we look at disarming techniques. Anyone with ANY weapon retention training at all can defeat KM disarms... If you want to learn the difference between what WILL work and what MIGHT work you need JKD...


Krav disarms will get you killed. IMO Just try it against someone with serious intent. Even a child will disengage and adjust the weapon to keep it from you or create space to use it on you. They might even hit you with their other hand or kick you back to keep the weapon. Don't count on a punch to the nose to send them reeling into some irreversable OODA loop. Not every armed attacker will be monkey trapped by your efforts to take the weapon.

To quote Coach Tripp. "KM as taught in the US is Tae Bo with an attitude"