Real World Streetfights

[Bahala Na]

How many times have you guys actually found yourselves in the position to go from long range, through punching range or the blast, and into trapping range in real altercations? I was having this discussion with a few of my rowdier friends, and another post in this forum about the straight blast prompted me to start this thread. I've always found that fights either initiate from so far away that you can tell there will be a problem, in which case, there never is, or they start right in your face with some idiot either yelling and cursing, or trying to sucker punch. I've maybe had ten fights ever that I could actually move, kick, punch, or whatever. The other hundred or so (most of these happened while I worked as a bouncer)were close range, quick, and ugly as hell. Since my real world experience has been mostly limited to the bar, I was wondering if any of you had a different take on things.
Mike

[Dion]

Ever heard of "expect the unexpected" or "be ready for anything", it is also put into philosophical forms as well but straight onto the point...

It does NOT merely mean go out, repetitively train and try to condition your self in the hope that you build up "quicker" reactions. No No No.... Like in the army where as they say... we will break you down and rebuild you into a better person, army recruit training is full on, no breaks, no pauses, no rest... it takes you beyond what you thought were possible of yourself and to be rid of your emotions and feelings, especially ego. You see they train you so hard, along a set pattern or "way" in order not for you to just become some strong mechanical thing that shoots on site but instead they teach you that you do not have to think or analyze a situation when it arises but merely use your as called "instinctive nature" to react to something due to merely preservation of life.... Your own! If you can't defend for yourself and attack then how can you expect to be able to defend and attack for someone else... self preservation performs amazing feats...

Through hard training they condition you into realising your own "instinctive" potential no matter what the situation that may arise and to be able to draw upon your "inner strength" or "force" to keep moving forward and never stop.

Looked at another way, a foriegn soldier sent to some place he has never been before and knows very little about the place and what lays within, although he is going into this new place with not to much knowledge about it, he has only one "real" thing on his mind... "fight" and "survive", in the jungle, bush, forest, field, town or even city where the unexpected will and always does happen and can never be truely planned for, but, instead of planning for a way to avoid the unexpected the soldier is taught to "expect" or be "aware" of himself and everything around him, including the unexpected and proceeds onward into the unknown, without "fear" for the unexpected but "awareness" or "respect" for it.

You can't "control" everything, but, you can be "aware" of everything, and, be prepared for anything.

hehehe... "sucker punch" I like that "name", it encites amusement in me.... sucker: one who falls victim to some unexpected event (hey Im not a dictionary ok hehe)...
In australia, being the developing "little guy amongst the giants" nation we are still, we have a different "name" to describe the unexpected "strike" and that is "king hit". This "name" for it does not suggest something unknown to the "victim", instead it refers to it as a damn powerfull strike, the "mother" of all strikes, why the king ?, because you werent ready for it and it "shocks" or "shakes" you, BUT, after you get your first "king hit", which ultimately becomes your last, you soon learn to be "aware" of such a thing and have a "respect" for it and also be "ready" for it next time, now being ready not meaning being in a constant state of combat readiness but to be aware of it at all times and then you can react according when nessecary...

A few aussie says for ya...
I quote...
"get up ya lazy bastard, that didnt hurt much",

"COM'ON!!!"(come-on)

and

"give it another go, you'll get the hang of it, just keep at it!"

As one man once said "life is a battle, drop your guard for one second and it will strike you down with all the might of god!"... well again maybe not exact and a little shorter but I don't remember it for what it is, I remember it for what it means or does...

**Like nature, where it knows no beginning or end just the flow of life, you must flow. Fight nature and it fights back, no holds barred!**

[gungfuhero]

Human beings have sh!tty instincts. In my opinion we have to build our instincts from the ground floor. My advice is to learn to defend against angles of attack rather than specific techniques, address different variables (distance, position relative to one's opponent, etc), use progressive training methods and spar like crazy in a variety of scenarios. The only way be good is to do get thousands of reps. Since you don't know what your opponent is going to throw at you, you had better train against a lot of attacks and do it like youur life depends on it because it could. The better you know your stuff the more likely it will come out in the heat of battle. The analytical process is shortened drastically, but is still there.

Train hard.

[Dion]

hehe go back to the other post gung... lost your way again hehe... Oi! this way!!


Repetitive training of a "martial art" is merely one "mans" way of developing ultimate control over themself, to gain muscle control!

Speed does not come from repitition.. speed comes from instinct and instinct is born with us not created over time or developed, it just gets sub-dued to conform to society.

On the other hand... the 'art' of ones self is a COMPLETELY different story... try giving yourself goose bumps or make adrenalin rush on a whim, take a good HARD look inside yourself, watch out though, you may not like what you see... try it.. YOU CAN DO IT!

I do not believe in the words "No", "Can't", "impossible" etc...

[Ryu (non-working password]

Well this might sound a bit unsportsmanlike...but

Since the majority of fights start unexpectedly when a guy gets an inch from your face and is cussing at you, or trying to sucker punch...hit first with a headbutt, and don't stop hitting. That distance is beautiful, because whoever hits first 99% of the time lands the first shot. If it's something big like a headbutt to the face, well not many can deal with it. Also, it is stupid for people to get so close to each other (and most do) because of the fact that there is no room to defend.

Hit first in that situation with a big tool, and don't give him time to regroup. Then escape.

Ryu

[Dion]

hehehehe where does sportsmanship come into play in "real life" ?



**As I say many times, 'Life' IS a battle and if you drop your 'guard' for one second it will strike you down with all the ferocity of the universe...**


.. maybe the path isn't so blinding after all hehe

[gungfuhero]

If you haven't got your reps in and don't have muscle memory then all the adreniline in the world may only make you shake and miss your target. Don't drill to form robotic responses, but rather to build your attributes so that when you react you can do something useful and intelegent. It only hits by itself when you've done it thousands of times. You must understand style or method before you can transcend it. hehehehe

[Chad W. Getz]

If I find myself in long range, you better believe I've found a weapon to hit someone with. I think it is easier to put the straight blast in at the bar than in the ring, because in the ring both people recognize each other as fighters and are reacting to movements accordingly. In the bar, most guys aren't looking at you as a fighter, so a straight blast or flurry of punches do nicely. They do even nicer if you've trained them against a "fighter" and have a real understanding of what you are doing. And as posted in another thread, if it didn't work and his hands go up in front of you, just place the toe into the balls before you hit him with the chair or a bottle.

[Bahala Na]

You guys are really taking off on this! Thanks. I would dispute one of the things you said, Dion. Speed is not so much a matter of instinct, but of coordination and conditioning. A person may act quickly to a given stimulus purely on instinct, but that action is rarely correct. Everyone is right when they say that we all need to work on recognizing lines or angles of attack rather than tools (that's the conditioning part)but smoothness and correct choice of tool is the product of lots of repetitions done with a focus on improvement. Also, I like your take on the Army's training methods...I just got home from training at the JFK Special Warfare Center and School at Fort Bragg...but I feel like maybe you're flattering them a little too much.
Chad, you're my kind of fighter. The first rule of unarmed combat is "get armed" right?
Actually, you guys have all put out some great training ideas, but what I'm really interested in are the statistics. Percentage-wise, how often do you find the room to move around, and how often do you just have to open up from close range? A lot of what I teach comes from Paul Vunak, and he's the king of "hit first." What I've found most often is that fights start close, and there's hardly ever any room for footwork and intercepting/destructions. The reason I'm wondering is, I'd like to develop some training methods for teaching this same "claustrophobic" situation, but I'd like to keep a good balance. If people tell me that 99% of their fights start close, then I think it needs more attention. If it's just my fights that start close, well that's another story. Thanks for all the feedback.
P.S. Dion, I like "King Hit" better, but most of the guys that I see get nailed with one are suckers for sure.
MIke

[Chad W. Getz]

Personally, Bahala Na, I've had my share of both long and far. Here in Hawaii, guys actually like to go up and up. There are alot of tough boxers and kickboxers that are a product of the society...nothing better to do in school but fight. Unfortunately...their experience usually comes from fights only and I think that training could only make them that much better. Anyway, that's off thread...like I said though, I've had guys follow me home and take off their shirt and start jumping around, someone pull out a bat, etc., but on the other hand when I was working as a security guard I had a few incidents that were up and close in my face and of course, the bar incidents there were no time to move around.

I tend to think that most street situations will be up close and not necessarily in a "sparring" mindset or frame...BUT, I think that the attributes that you get to sharpen are irreplaceable. We can willingly put ourselvels into 1000 sparring situations, and walk away to live and learn, however, you can not put yourself into only 75 "self-defense" situations and consider yourself a wise man(well you can put yourself into it and consider yourself wise, but I wouldn't). In training we can simulate environments where we would push our opponent away to grab a weapon, etc., etc., and this is a good mindset to develop.

I also feel that if you can work your "grace under fire" against a skilled opponent that is expecting you to hit and/or counter his attacks, then your percentage rate on the street may be that much higher. Partially because most people that have to defend themselves will do so against a "predator" and someone that will most likely not be expecting someone to burst into a suddne movement into them. Of course, I use words like most and sometimes, and likely because we can not say what will and will not happen, because it will or will not happen whether we predict for or against it or not.

To come to a closing, I think that sparring or "athletic combat"-if one could call it that is a great place to start someone off in the MA. Definetely at long range into the closer range. The thought being that if a student can work against a skilled opponent, they should have no problem working it against some tough guy on the street. And if they do come across someone that is setting himself up for combat with boxer like movements or similar (BTW, women will very very rarely face someone facing off with her, so this will be an advantage to her as well), than they will already have an advantage over this guy. Just my opinion, of course.

Oh, yeah, Bahala..."The first rule of unarmed combat is "get armed" right?"...Sounds right to me...

[Ryu (non-working password]

There has been times where I have not even known I was in a fight until I was on the ground. People rarely square off. One fight I had was with a co-worker in a utility room who wanted me to show him a wrestler's double leg. I did, and he said he could just "twist me" with some weird move...I showed him again, and he couldn't do it. Finally he said "well let's spar" and I reluctantly accepted. I took him down a final time, and suddenly he grasped onto my neck and started trying to tear it off (figuratively )
All I did was turn him onto his back get side control, mount him, and threaten a pummeling. He gave up, and was shaking a bit from then on. I really felt kind of bad about this because the guy was not as big as I was...but I didn't really have to hurt him. Another time I was jumped by two guys during a "hazing" as a security officer...I used Paul's "mass attack" strategy, but still ended up on the ground. I again gained position, twisted a guy's arm with ude garame, and had the other hitting my back, and pulling on my arms. I was able to somehow slip between the standing guy's legs, get back to my feet, and zone away from them until they gassed...then I left.
So I really think grappling plays a big part in real defense, even though people say "mass opponents, knives," etc. You need it. Being good with a knife is also important

Ryu

[Dion]

Bahala Na, yes I agree that someone who cops a "king hit" in the first place is a "sucker", especially for upsetting things in the first place in order for it to eventuate.

But still the "king hit" is merely another action caused from some equal and opposite reaction... an upset in the balance of things and you should be *fully* aware of balance upset in anything, including yourself, then itll come back to you...

I can not help but feel all forms of emotion about the lack of or little understanding about what each is capable of in situations etc and noting how much it surprised them or similar lines yet if you go and take a hard look at it, eg Ryu for example you say that with the two guys you "somehow managed to slip through his legs...", well did you ever stop to think that for that moment when you slipped through his legs that you ultimately did let go to yourself and flow with what is true in yourself and around you, instead of trying to analyze and think about it all the time ? ... preservation of life and for that fact the whole word and association of the word INSTINCT is merely another deceptive label placed on something we again don't understand... !

INSTINCT: to react without process of percievable thought...

Can you close your ""senses"" and be aware of yourself and where you are ??

heh heh heh heh....

EXAMPLE, from today acctually: I was buying some new clothes and when I went to pay I had to go "up" four stairs to the counter (real space stippler the owner heh) where I
lost "visual" and "perceptive memory" of the stairs directly behind me, actually a few millimeters off the edge of the top one, and was accidentally caught up in his money handling and as I was placing the returned money in my wallet, I moved toward the shop exit not thining about at what height I was and just walked, ha you think "he tripped and probably had a lucky landing that he has probably thought about a bit and now says it was his inner self but was more logically a 'lucky break'", BUT, instead of falling down or tripping or losing balance on the stairs I had actually stepped down the full height in one go and kept walking, when I became "visually" aware of where I was I realised that I had completely missed the steps and tried to think as to how I got down them so fast and without having much of a memory of it but I was neither hurt nor discomforted by it nor had I stumbled in any way.... analazye all that people and tell me something is this and something is that hehehe ... its just AWARENESS inside and outside as its said , find your "true" centre... hehehe how much truth that holds is bewildering and even more the first time you see it but through not giving up on trying you can 'be'...

Another one... I had what I had been told was an injury that would not leave me to my left legs inner thigh to the tendon and testie area (blood clots inclusive from the damage) where I was told itll prob give me a bit of a limp but after a while I stopped myself believing that it was such an injury and "told" that area to "wake up" and sure enough once asked it complied and with a bit of "work" it is now feeling even better than ever, I was able to "walk" again and hence am exerting my natural "force" through it.

What can you move ?

I can shake the very foundation of that which we do not see... can you ?

Try making oh say a paper cup fall over without touching it and return your striking limb before it lands on its side... now that requires more than just speed... Really! Do try it... BUT REMEMBER DO NOT TOUCH IT PHYSICALLY!

Deluded...?!?! HEH, Not by a long shot baby!

No self-conciousness is more correct!

I don't think, therefore I be!

You ARE there!

I can say that I have noticed change though, in many peoples "ways of perception", but still I see they need more "guidance" to the "true ways" of "themselves".

but comms is back to the I-net now so I can gain more "perceptions" of its "ways" then I shall "truely speak"!

I am back! ... but then again I never truely left

[Rubbaneck]

Hey Ryu, LOL! Where do you work? I'd love to be able to spar with a few of the people I work with!

Rubbaneck