Ground Mobility or Positioning/ Concrete

[Chad W. Getz]

I know that this isn't the BJJ thread, but I had a question for those that do roll...

On the ground, do you prefer moving from position to position, always constantly moving OR do you prefer to stay and hold position before moving.

The reason I ask is that, if I'm not mistaken, I think Matt mentioned something on his tape about constantly moving, and gungfu hero mentioned something about Eric Paulson and an article stressing mobility on the ground.

I currently find myself doing a mix of both, but I place alot of importance on relaxing and maintaining position. this may be due to the fact that we began training BJJ on the concrete, so movement there is not always the best option.

Which brings up a second question...there has always been controsversy about grappling effectiveness in streetfights, concrete, curbs, asphalt, etc., etc. Being that we trained this way, when we rolled with someone that has mat training, there were certain things that we understood about what you can and can not do on concrete, that he might not have taken into consideration the first time, which may, or may not, have made a difference on the street. He wears shoes now and knee pads for example. Actually we all wear knee pads or knee sleeves now, but when we first started, we didn't. It's not always focused on, but these things have a big play on how they affect ones training. Environmental training. If you haven'tdone itbefore, I suggest you try rolling with a t-shirt and jeans on the asphalt. You will find that elbows and knees do not like asphalt too much. Or back of the neck or faces, etc. What say you?

[Paul Sharp]

Chad,
We prefer mobility, without sacrificing position. The advantage in "scrambling" is constant pressure and your opponent doesn't get a chance to set anything up. The disadvantage is your opponent can set you up by allowing you to run into something. One example would be bottom position in a north/south, top guy starts to scramble to cross body as he goes around both players have an opportunity for an arm bar, the guy that sinks it first wins. If you play the game of constant movement make sure your not letting him set you up. So.., we focus on "scrambling" while staying tight and moving from position to position.

Of course, a quick submission is always welcome.

We look to escape if we are in bottom position, particularly if concerned about "street" applications.

The Ground Game is part of the "street" game, the biggest downfall is guy's get tunnel vision in a fight and forget about the opponent's friends.

I recently used elements of my Ground Game in a street situation. Long story short, I was in a knee-on-chest position, I spun around his head, caught his arm and sunk in an Americana, he became really compliant. This is also a great place to 'cuff from, if anybody from LE is reading. This occurred on the sidewalk outside a 7-11. I did bang up my knee a little and even ripped my pants, but I didn't notice until later when someone pointed this out to me. Adrenaline is a beautiful thing.

I use elements from my Ground and Clinch Game's on a regular basis in "street" situations.

Peace,
Paul Sharp

http://www.championjiujitsu.com

[Chad W. Getz]

Paul, thanks. I am still young in my ground game experience, but steadily improving it by working it. I see the point behind what you are saying. Ultimately, we do seek to gain superior positioning, maybe it is just taking me some time to gain position without possibility of escape before moving on to a better position? How do you guys work with new guys? Wouldn't a ground virgin virtually give his opponent the escapes, not to mention submission? Do you see/find better progression with guys that are starting there grappling with this gameplan in mind, or is positioning stressed at first and mobility emphasized once the basic structure is understood?

[TKOU]

Hey Chad,
My instructor takes us outside to do reality traininng for ground stuff and it really is eye opening. He finds the part of the asphalt that is falling apart so there is plenty of gravel and debris and then we start. I prefer knee on stomach to any other position. If you really feel the need to illustrate how the ground game changes outside add the takedown element in! Nothing like a good double leg to get both you (the thrower) and your partner's (the throwee) attention like a fall on concrete and gravel!

Going to the ground in a real fight is not the best thing to do. It may be a high percentage of fights do but I'd rather end it standing.

Or to use a quote from Vov (I think) "My best takedown is a right cross."

Just my thoughts.

[Chad W. Getz]

Originally posted by TKOU

It may be a high percentage of fights do but I'd rather end it standing.

And a stick in my hand.

[Paul Sharp]

Chad,
We generally work on escapes first. That gives them the ability to roll from the beginning. The premise for this method is, if you can't catch 'em and position on 'em than you can't submit them. We also stress a lot of conditioning to support this type of game.

I totally understand what you are thinking when you mention holding position. I often have to fight that mental fight, especially if I am rolling with someone evenly matched or a better than me. If I get position I don't want to give it up for anything. I really want to make sure I have something before I do move. The problem with that type of game is I'll never grow. I can stall all day, to improve my game I need to try and make something happen. At least for me, that was my reason behind a cautious ground game. Fear of getting "caught". Now I just roll, of course I look for position so I can set up a sub, but I stress a lot less about getting caught. One real benefit to playing this way is I'm finding all kinds of weird ways to make subs work. I talked with Luis Gutierrez about this and he shared the same thoughts. Its hard to describe in print, but try this to start. Next time you roll, don't go for any subs. Just see how many times you can change positions. As you move around your opponent take note of how many things open up. It will amaze you. It did me, I couldn't believe how many things I was missing by just holding position.

Its a different game, but give it a whirl, if you don't like it, discard it.

Speaking of new guys..., this is the perfect game to play with them. They are just learning escapes and positioning. When you roll with them they can work escapes and you can work constant pressure through positional changes. You probably won't have to worry about getting caught in a sub since they are new and don't have any yet. You will both benefit, you work changes and set ups, they can work escapes into position.

I dig the comment about stick in hand. As they say around here, thats how you get off the bottom of a pile!

Peace,
Paul Sharp

http://www.championjiujitsu.com

[athom]

movement

Chad,
Your question is interesting to me because I am currently working on making my ground game more "alive". Not trying to name drop, but I've been training with Frank Shamrock full-time and his mantra is MOVEMENT - POSITION - SUBMISSION in that order. After training BJJ for several years the act of holding someone in the guard, half-guard, etc. is a hard habit to break. Frank uses the concept of constantly throwing "combos" on the ground. Much like stand-up fighting you're most likely not going to knock someone out with a straight jab or just a cross. It usually happens when you throw combos. So on the ground be aware of your opponent's options when attempting a certain submission and capitalize on that. Much like playing pool, always think 3 to 4 moves ahead. He also dosen't teach submission as much as proper positioning. Recently he held a submission tounament in San Jose with 3 min. rounds as opposed to BJJ's 6-7 min. He stressed constant movement and belive me you can gas out pretty quick. Another interesting rule was that if you attempt a submission the referee gives you to the count of 3 to get it. If you fail to get it you have 3 move seconds to release the hold or you will be penalized, thus stressing constant movement.

[Chad W. Getz]

Paul, we roll tonight. I understand what you are saying. Personally, when I roll, my aim has always been to position myself to strike. That is my interest, and that is how the guy that gave me my first exposure to BJJ did it. The only times that I have been going for submissions is when I think the guy really wraps it up and gives it to me. Of course, this is probably like this for now, because my subs need alot of work, and I am still playing my position and escape game right now. Thanks for the tips.

Athom, I wish we had more tournaments down here in Hawaii. I wouldn't mind giving it a shot at a no gi competition. Although I'd probably be sent home with my arm in a pretzel.

We see tonight, guys.

[gungfuhero]

I stress movement, but only if things aren't going my way in the position I'm in. As a smaller guy, I typically can move better than my opponent. However, it also makes it a lot easier for them to throw me off. I try not to move for movement's sake, only when it has a stragegic advantage.

The first way I learned to do a double leg, was on my feet in a squatting posture. A Jun Fan guy taught it to me, and I like it because your knee doesn't have to touch the potentially hazardous ground. The draw back is that when I do it, it doesn't have as much power as when I do a real tackle (w/a penetration step).

[Edited by gungfuhero on 01-12-2001 at 11:33 PM]

[Chad W. Getz]

Yea, found that the constant mobility is a different game than positioning, a different type of stamina needed here. Good to train both and be familiar with both game plans though, thanks for the help guys.

[Fiery Ermine]

Size and Position related

I am a small peerson, about 134. My sparring partners are not giant guys but the next smallest guy is about 158. I'm not a bad wrestler and I prefer the top position, but if I get a mount, I start thinking about submission immediately, 'cause I know I'm not going to keep the guy down for too long.

FE

[Dion]

Somewhere it was said, falling or going to ground is just losing sense of where you are for that moment so you search for the ground in hope of satisfying the disorientation of it not being there.

I would prefer to never go to the ground personnaly, I was given a back to support my torso and head, not to lay down and submit on. My body knows which way up is, its just my logic trying to reason with it that disorientated me.

Freedom Ultimate... !

*the ground can stay where it is and I shall stay where I am... on my 'feet'.*

[Paul Sharp]

Chad,
good to hear you gave it a try. Your right, a balance of both approaches is best.

As you already know from your stick fighting, sparring is the best way to find that balance.

Peace,
Paul Sharp

http://www.championjiujitsu.com