What exactly is Jeet Kune Do?

[HungryWolf21]

I know that this is a question that many people have asked, and even more have tried to answer. This my upset some people, but here it goes. Lately I have been tired of reading articles written by people telling all of us what JKD is and what it isn't. For example, many of the articles that I read state that if a person studies 15 different arts, they are not doing JKD. Yet in the very same article, they go on to say that JKD is not a style or a system. OK, let me see if I can get this straight: A. If someone goes out and studies and experiences several different arts, but have not gotten a certification under a JKD teacher, then he/she is not doing JKD. B. JKD is not a style or a system.

Does anybody else see a problem here beside me. Their reasoning goes in a complete circle that defines nothing. If just studying several arts does not make you a "JKD person" and doing the same thing under a JKD instructor, what does that leave Jeet Kune Do as? An art!!!!! By saying that you cannot be a JKD person without studying under a JKD instructor, you are classifying JKD as a system or art. Now, don't get me wrong. I completely disagree with someone studying several arts and then cashing in on the JKD name. However, don't tell people what their doing is wrong just because it is not what you do.

Let the phrase "way of no way" actually mean something.

Sorry so long

Just my two cents

[BIG Sean Madigan]

asdasdasd

[Edited by BIG Sean Madigan on 01-12-2001 at 09:05 AM]

[Badger]

Instead of worrying about the title"Jeet Kune Do"

Just cross-train & use what works for you.

It works for me



-Badger

[sikal]

I have posted this before (I think in this forum, even), but here it is again.

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It is my firm belief (and the more I see, the more I believe it) that all martial arts training ends up at the same place. As someone else said (maybe somewhere else) "fighting is fighting." Different arts may specialize in a particular aspect ... but I think that if given enough time with serious dedication, any combatively minded art will produce a fighter as good as any produced by other combatively minded arts.

The problem, though, is human nature. People in WC for 20 years tend to be dedicated to learning and understanding the underlying principles. People in JKD, sadly, tend to be more focused on collecting more techniques. I don't feel that this is a fault of the art ... it is a fault of some of its practitioners.

Before I go further, let me say that:
A) I respect JKD as much as any other martial art
B) I respect a lot of the JKD players that I've met
C) I do not consider myself a JKD man ... though I've had a fair amount of exposure to it

JKD is, IMHO, a training ideal ... it is not a system. It is a conceptual method, a handbook, it is not a guidebook.

Let me use an analogy to try to explain my opinion better. Many martial arts are like well-worn paths. At first, the instructor teaches the student how to walk on the path. The instructor points out pitfalls and other branches (some of them good, some bad) in the path. After a while, the student finds his/her own pace and picks up souveniers from his favorite rest areas (i.e.: pet techniques). Then the student starts going back and forth along the path helping guide younger students and increasing his knowledge about the landmarks and pitfalls and such.

JKD, on the other hand, is more like your instructor says, "Here's a map of the overall terrain, a machete, and a compass. You have to get to this point on the map ... which way do you want to go?" The teacher accompanies the student and still watches for pitfalls and wrong turns (the teacher has to be pretty sharp sometimes) but the student carves his/her own path. Along the way this path will intersect with other paths ... but by and large, the student is working things out for him/herself with advice from the teacher.

In the end, the traditionalist and the JKD'er reach the same place. Each has experiences, tools, and advantages that the other missed ... but they are just as proficient with the tools they've got and they have the same depth of understanding of their respective tools.

Now, the problem with a lot of JKD'ers is that they meander and don't check their compass enough. Consequently, they may spend 20 years and never develop any real depth of understanding ... they have a whole truckload of tools and can't use any of them with more than a basic level of proficiency.

Is this problem exclusive to JKD? No. Traditionalists do this as well. They skip along the trail and overlook all the finer points. Regardless of any rank they achieve, they don't learn any depth. They simply know that the path goes from point A to point B ... and they're not sure what kinds of trees are along the way or where any of the pitfalls are.

I have seen people from both camps who have squandered their years of training in petty concerns and haven't developed anything all that useful ... but, in my experience anyway, this is a more prevalent case with JKD'ers.

However, this shouldn't be considered a slam to JKD ... it's a slam to anyone (from either methodology) who is guilty of the above.

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I copied and pasted the above from when I previously typed it out (saves on typing :-). It was from a discussion which was somewhat tangential to this current one ... but I think the above post covers my opinion on "What is JKD?" pretty well.

Regards, Mike

[HungryWolf21]

Good post Sikal. I just get a little frustrated when I read someone say that a certain person is not a JKD person (even though they have found their own way through the study and experiences of other arts) just because they did not study under a certified JKD instructor.

Here is something else to ponder:

Let's say that an influential JKD person, Paul Vunak for purposes of example, goes out and studies several arts on his own. He learns the same techniques, gains the same experience, and forms his own way without the guidance of a JKD instructor. Same person, same skills, and same style. Only this time there is no JKD certification. Would you no longer consider that person JKD? Even thought that they employed the same tactics and strategies as any other JKDer?

Please don't let terminology determine the experience.

Now I could be wrong, but it never hurts to ask questions in the search for truth.

[Dion]

The Sun floods across the horizon to awaken man to the beauties of mother nature and slowly through the realisation about the universe, the days become one, where light or dark, good or evil and right or wrong become...

and it goes on....


Hey another question for y'all....

What defines a 'technique' ?

Something that you become aware of because you realise that it worked in a particular situation and saved you from the onset pain that you may have recieved if you did not use it ??

or

Something that someone else becomes aware of because in they see the potential of a particular movement and yet are not sure how it was performed and so goes out to train on it in order to make himself react with the same 'technique' ?

or

I would say it is a neither and both and more, I find that, as with most things in this world of 'advertisement' and 'being popular', the most 'techniques' that are perveyed to people are merely 'the fashionable' ways people have found to do things, like the feather that loses its place on the bird just to be discovered it can be used with something else and perform as a quill and the voice can become words on paper, and then just to be discarded again because the voice discovers a new more proficient method of perveying its words and so on..., BUT, one must always remember that the quill, even though not used anymore, still had the same purpose as the pen and even before it became a quill it still had 'usefull' purpose... thats just a snippet of that which is bigger but there isn't enough space on even the I-net to put the story of 'purpose' into words...


The tiger faced me and asked...

"What is it you seek ?"

I replied...

"Freedom..."

to which the tiger asked...

"Freedom? In what form do you seek this freedom ?"


"Freedom with out boundries!", I state...

to which the tiger replies..

"then accept all and all will accept"

"I accept your terms", I reply back...

and the tiger says "Then we accept each other..." and I feel the spirit of man and beast spiral up and rush back down, flooding my every being with the emotions of both and neither; feeling all of the weight on mans shoulders lift and the balance of life take its place...


What happens next ? (( please don't give me a 'real' answer hehe just think about it ))

Let the spirit be!

Freedom ultimate...

[sikal]

Originally posted by HungryWolf21
Good post Sikal. I just get a little frustrated when I read someone say that a certain person is not a JKD person (even though they have found their own way through the study and experiences of other arts) just because they did not study under a certified JKD instructor.

Here is something else to ponder:

Let's say that an influential JKD person, Paul Vunak for purposes of example, goes out and studies several arts on his own. He learns the same techniques, gains the same experience, and forms his own way without the guidance of a JKD instructor. Same person, same skills, and same style. Only this time there is no JKD certification. Would you no longer consider that person JKD? Even thought that they employed the same tactics and strategies as any other JKDer?

Please don't let terminology determine the experience.

Now I could be wrong, but it never hurts to ask questions in the search for truth.

Well, Guro Dan Inosanto said once (total paraphrase, not a quote, just my best recollection) at a seminar that for someone to really be a "JKD man" that Jun Fan should be their "core." To me, this meant that they should have trained in Jun Fan and that it should have played some sort of pivotal role in their development. This is why I don't consider myself a "JKD man." While I've had a fair amount of exposure to Jun Fan and am even somewhat proficient with it, it didn't play a pivotal role in my development. I consider myself a "JKD sympathizer." I believe that the philosophy of JKD is accurate and I'm a big advocate of cross-training ... but I've never officially studied Jun Fan and it didn't play a major role in my development. Now, as to *why* Jun Fan plays a role (in my opinion), it is the system that Bruce Lee actually put together for the purposes of developing "JKD" in people. So, for JKD, Jun Fan should be the glue that holds the elements together. If the glue is something else then should it be called JKD? IMHO, no. This would be like putting a Ford emblem on a Chevy. Is one car better than the other? That's a completely subjective question. But, even if the cars are, for all practical purposes, the same, the car never went through the Ford production plant and shouldn't be called a Ford. Using this analogy, Jun Fan is like the production plant for JKD. There are different models of JKD cars, but they all were built on the Jun Fan assembly line. If a car wasn't built on the Jun Fan assembly line, then it, IMHO, shouldn't be called JKD.

This is just my take on the issue ... and it helps me to avoid the politics that have arisen in the JKD circles.

Is this right or wrong? I don't know. I guess it's a free country and people can call what they do anything they want ... whether or not it's ethical is something way beyond my "paygrade" :-)

Regards, Mike

[HungryWolf21]

I can see your point Sikal. However, if one has to study Jun Fan Gung Fu in order to fully experience JKD, then doesn't that place some sort of conformity on JKD. I thought that a big part of JKD (the philosophy) is to go against conformity on the path towards freedom. I understand that Dan Inosnato is a big name in JKD, and he if anybody should get a say in as to what JKD and what it is not.

My next question is, why all the mystery? If JKD is so simple to understand, why are all the answers to the questions as what it is so cryptic.

I feel that it should be looked upon as a philosophy, and nothing more. Like Bruce said, "it's just a name, don't fuss over it."

Well, in starting this thread, I guess I am not following Bruce's advice.

Or am I......?

[sikal]

Originally posted by HungryWolf21
I can see your point Sikal. However, if one has to study Jun Fan Gung Fu in order to fully experience JKD, then doesn't that place some sort of conformity on JKD. I thought that a big part of JKD (the philosophy) is to go against conformity on the path towards freedom. I understand that Dan Inosnato is a big name in JKD, and he if anybody should get a say in as to what JKD and what it is not.

As I understand it, the goal isn't to rail against conformity ... it's to avoid getting stuck in conformity. A structured progression is necessary to learn effectively. You have to have a solid foundation on which to build your house. Jun Fan is the foundation upon which JKD is built. If you use a different foundation then maybe it shouldn't be called JKD. I think that the "go against conformity" is part of the misconception which has fostered many of the "jacks of all, master of none" JKD players. They get so caught up in "not conforming" that they completely bypass the structure necessary to develop effectiveness. They build a house of cards and call it a home. Personally, I think that it's more a matter of saying, "Just because everyone else is building brick ranch-style homes, I have to as well." That's the type of conformity that Bruce defied in his development of the JKD philosophy. Many people now say, "I don't want to conform so I'll use styrofoam for my foundation." I think these people are missing the boat :-)

My next question is, why all the mystery? If JKD is so simple to understand, why are all the answers to the questions as what it is so cryptic.

Not to add to the mystique ... but JKD is different for each practitioner. Therefore, each practitioner will have a different take on what it is ... and may or may not be able to express it well.

I feel that it should be looked upon as a philosophy, and nothing more. Like Bruce said, "it's just a name, don't fuss over it."

Well, in starting this thread, I guess I am not following Bruce's advice.

Or am I......?

LOL ... 100% both! I have gotten the impression that Bruce was always one to question things he didn't understand. I think he would have approved of your question. What I don't think he would have approved of is the whole controversy that sparked your question to begin with. It's hard to say what would have happened if he had lived longer.

Would he have faded into obscurity? Would he have continued to skyrocket? Would he have dumped the name JKD when people began fussing over it ... or would people have fussed over it if he had lived longer? Or would he have let the fuss go because it inspired people to think?

Who knows. All we have to go on is what he recorded while he was alive and what people who knew him have to say. I've often gotten the impression (though I don't know that I've heard it voiced) that Bruce, for all his genious, was rather immature in a lot of ways. If he'd have lived, maybe he'd have matured and, over time, shifted the whole paradigm of "JKD." Who's to say that any of his students have been "wrong" in what they've done with JKD. After all, they've all been living and maturing and doing what they felt was right as time has progressed. Bruce's path (had he lived) may or may not have paralleled (sp?) the path of one of his students ... but we'll never know.

What it all boils down to is personal choice. If you think what you do is JKD and choose to call it that, then cool. More power to you. If someone else chooses to claim that what you do isn't JKD, then cool. More power to them. It's a free country and people are going to do what they choose. It's up to each person to decide what is "right" or "wrong." (This, of course, bars anything that is "illegal" which may or may not indicate that it is "right" or "wrong." :-)

Regards, Mike

[Dion]

the helping hand is extended and waits...

but what is this..

it is not only taken up but grasped firmly in the hope of never letting go...

and from within it continues to grow

[Kevin]

Whaisit....

In my personal opinion, I consider JKD a lineage. If you have trained under an instructor who traces his lineage back to Bruce Lee, then you are part of that lineage. I guess some people are lucky enough to have their instructor's ideas exactly match their own. They feel there is no need for change... but I don't feel that is a requirement. Either way their lineage is JKD.

I trained for 8 yrs within the JKDC lineage (and 17 yrs of previous experience). My training ideas are a blend of my personal experinces. Since my chosen curriculum is disimiliar from Guro I's, I choose to bill the training I offer as Mixed Martial Arts using JKD Concepts.

Your mileage may vary...
~Kev

[gungfuhero]

I think that what is meant by "you must train Jun Fan to truly do JKD" is that the concepts that lead one to JKD are exemplified in Jun Fan: simplicity, economy of motion, etc. This isn't to say that one can't learn these concepts and attain a state of formless self expression while training in other systems. Jun Fan is just a more direct path. For expample, if one cross trains Boxing, judo, sambo, shotokan, Bando, Lameco and Tai Chi, as long as one learns to transcend style truly express oneself, haven't they attained the essence of JKD?

Besides, JKD isn't the end, but a means.

If you can develop an eye for functionality, a nonpartial out look on martial art and life, and a creative yet practical mind, it doesn't matter who's clan you're from.

[mild7]

Quite simply:

(1)There is the philosophy of JKD
(2)There are the 'styles'(JKD Concepts,JFJKD,SBG etc) that are based upon this philosophy.

I think this is the best way to get a grasp of what is going on in JKD.

So could any hybrid style base their teachings on the philosophy of JKD and then call themselves JKD? They could, but why bother? JKD is only a name... if you are not part of a 'jkd lineage' then it is disrespectful to label your system JKD and an obvious case of cashing in on a name.

[Evilution]

I think JKD means something different to everybody. To "define" it is to contradict it. To me it means not placing boundaries on something that should be growing continually.

So many people cling to the term JKD when really it's just a boat used to get across a river. Once you get across the river you forget it, you don't carry it on your back. I believe one of the most important things Bruce ever said was that the ultimate goal in JKD is to transcend JKD. That's why I don't call myself a JKD man and that's why I prefer the MMA forum over this one which is often full of pointless arguement over something that is simply simple. Then again there is plenty of pointless argueing on the MMA forum too.

Don't search for definition, just train real and train hard.

[Kevin]

>>So could any hybrid style base their teachings on the philosophy of JKD and then call themselves JKD? They could, but why bother? JKD is only a name... if you are not part of a 'jkd lineage' then it is disrespectful to label your system JKD and an obvious case of cashing in on a name.<<

Disrespectful...?
I don't know if I would say that... it may be just the opposite. Some individuals may respect and admire JKD so much that they seek to associate themselves with the JKD name. But, IMO they are being less than truthful to themselves and others by suggesting an association that isn't there... they should just bill themselves as mixed martial arts... or some other similar title, and let their teachings stand or fall on their own merit.

~Kev