Bruce Lee VS. Muhammad Ali

[jubaji]

.......................................

[tkd_wrestler]

I'm picking Bruce. The two of them are the fighters that influenced me the most when I got serious about martial arts but Bruce was just an all around better fighter. Ali had better boxing skills but he'd be extremely rusty with kicks. Despite Ali's speed and size Bruce could still hit harder than him and faster. His strength was ridiculous for a man his size. With bar rules Bruce would use all of his skills so it wouldn't even come down that. He'd use his finger jabs, kick to the knees, the groin and go to the ears. He was just a more experience street fighter.

[tribalweapon]

This will probably get me started off on the wrong foot but here goes.

This is stupid.

Thank you.

[jubaji]

That's actually a great start, and absolutely correct!

[Furniturepal]

tribalweapon - Best start I've ever seen.

This debate never dies, does it?

I've never given my two cents to it, but here goes. Myself being a small-skill/intermediate-skill boxer, I would absolutely put my bet on Bruce Lee.

Muhammad Ali was one of the greatest boxers on the planet. But still, that's pretty much only fists to hit with and feet to try and get out of the way with. Bruce Lee was everything. Fists, palms, feet, elbows, head, knees, and even fingers. Sure Bruce was 5'7 and 145 maximum, but he was pure muscle and he hit with so much hand power, when his opponents woke up, they said it felt like they had been hit by a car. Bruce knocked a guy who weighed 235 pounds off his feet with just one inch of his punch power.

He was amazing. As fast and as great as Ali was, by the time he threw a right cross, Bruce would have blocked it and kicked his legs out from under him, or he would have done one of the other thousands of powerful, precise, and fast tactics and combinations he knew.

I have both Bruce Lee and Muhammad Ali posters on my admiration wall, but Bruce Lee would dominate. I have no idea how anyone could think any different, but to each their own.

[ZenPizzeria]

This thread kinda reminds me of that dumb "Alien vs. Predator" movie.... Just as a side note, it's been written that Bruce Lee racked up an awful lot of hours studying Ali fight footage, and in fact a lot of Ali's boxing and footwork were formative elements of Bruce Lee's JKD....

[tkd_wrestler]

Yeah... There are some fights people just want to see and that was one of them. I'd like to see a battle between Spike from Cowboy Bebop and Vash from Trigun but that may never happen. *sigh*

This will probably get me started off on the wrong foot but here goes.

This is stupid.

Thank you.

I know but it's always fun to imagine.

[Jon_B]

Being able to counter your opponent with your own attack is very effective, but I am sure that it would take a few good punches to take Ali down in all honesty. You said the stipulation was a ring match, so while I do believe that it could tip either way, I think that would give Ali a bit of advantage. As for the streets: I honestly don't know. Bruce lee would throw some serious speed while Ali would throw some serious power though.

[world_peace0]

Ali would win.

[mano012sg]

HI!!!...First I hope this thread is for people who are serious about answering this qn and not fooling ard for an answer as a joke. If it is ..tell me,,i'll buzz off.

I actually did some thinking into this topic some time back. and from a neutral standpoint of view...Bruce Lee would knock Ali down, maybe even KO Ali if he was lucky. This I am saying...despite no-holds barred, if Bruce just stuck to boxing Vs boxing (Ali).

Before I go into 'here's why', let me get the parameters straight:

I was looking at: (a) distance (b)attitude (c) timing when the strike lands -- regardless of strike (d) target [which is mostly the face of any bodily opening] (e)power (f) rules (i know...no holds barred...what rules?) [Bruce would use boxing and no kicks or wingchun - specific blocks / trapping].

So in an all and out boxing tournament, Bruce Lee vs Muhammed Ali (in his prime). Still I would Bruce Lee a win.

Now..Here's Why:

Distance

First let's analyse Bruce Lee's System of distance. Scientically studied and experimented via wing chun and fencing...Bruce's very intention is to use and master his opponent's distance and rhythm. Along with his speed and springy movement, he also was comfortable in in-fighting. So he'll be more in control in near distances. Bruce Lee comes from experimentation and experience.

Muhammed Ali, was a good analyst of distance as well. which is precisely why he could duck punches by reeling back and come back to hit just in time. One of boxers' and Ali's favourite strategy was to check the punch in its starting path. Checking the punch won't work against Bruce...as Bruce has his one-inch punch...which is STILL a jab that goes by boxing rules.(except that its powerful to do damage, or get Ali, winded or actually hurled down)
Ali's distance analysis was concentrated on the punch and the individual's telegraphing.

Giving everything....Bruce Lee was slightly Superior to Ali in distance judgement. But in that respect, I believe Ali would learn during the fight and distance wise both would be about even.

Attitude

Bruce Lee has powerful willpower and is persistent. Muhammed Ali is has jjust as much will power and persistance.

But there is a difference, Bruce Lee's attitude is more precise and dense...because he specifically trained to control it. Ali's attitude was a consequence of tactics of fighting in the ring. Difference? its like you learning how to fly-kick by chance and polishing it, vs learning step by step how to do a flying kick. Sooner or later, the former guy, will have to go and learn the steps formally. I.e: Study + Experience vs pure experience.

Bruce Lee wins in attitude and perseverance ... though both will stay up, but Bruce's training will enable him to feint even his attitude...tripping Ali psychologically, if Ali is not too sharp. Even if he is sharp...Bruce can use it to his advantage.

Timing

Bruce Lee's study with timing looks at precise moment of striking even when the opening is there. Although his footwork matches Mhd Ali's his striking timing is much more precise than Ali's. In terms of bobbing around, Bruce Lee is fully aware of using it and feints to create openings, and is ready to defend against them. Bruce Lee also makes full use and seeks broken rhythm in an opponent.

Muhammed Ali hits when there's the opening. Then by bobbing around he creates openings. However, this would not be effective on Bruce, since Bruce knows how to counter/dodge this, due to his comfort with in-fighting. [Imagine yourself allowing an opening and facing the punch of Ali...you'll know what I mean.] Ali would know the value of broken rhythm but to his its probably one in the arsenal of tricks...not an out an out fighting strategy. So effectively he is 'less' trained than Bruce in this aspect. His saving grace would be using his distance against Bruce.

Rather surely, Bruce wins by timing.

Speed

Bruce Lee's speed. One watching Way of the Dragon, when he fights Chuck Norris...there is the final part where he delivers about 7 - 8 blow combinations a second. And this is his 'slow-mo' hits.

{Now for those who don't know...Bruce Lee had to always hold back his punches/kicks even during live demonstrations. He was very interested about Class, which also meant he would be showing what was conceivable and he was fully capable of. Any normal person would not show what they are newly trying out, in case they fail, and embarass themselves.

Next is the issue of Bruce's speed and power. Same thing, in demonstrations he has to hold back his power, or else he would have killed the other guy. His speed, was fast as everyone knows, but do you know that the filming took a double whammy from Bruce? First, Bruce's speed on film, was a consciously slowed down effort...coz it did not show. Second, even so, the film was sped up so that Bruce's speed was in slow-mo. and in filming he was moving fast, and powerfully without touching his opponent (acting, u noe). That was in his earlier movies.

He was 3 films experienced and obviously moved in 2 directions. One was he gained more control of his filming style. Second he did become more powerful and skilled (no doubtedly, faster and stronger) in Real Life by the time he did Way of the Dragon and Enter the Dragon. All his film speeds were his slow-mos +/(or) sped up cameras, and he did improve his own skill.

Despite all of these, what you saw in Way of the Dragon with Chuck Norris ... very probably slow-mo-ed, was still a blistering 7-8 combos a second. Anyone tries to follow him? Its not simple at all. Or it feels like you are compromising on speed or power.

That was Film, so in Real Life, all out, against World's Greatest Boxer...you do the math for speed and power generated. clash of titans}

Muhammed Ali, was fast, numbering about 5-6 punch combinations a second, and with great sense of distance. But I am really guessing that he would have been a tad slower than Bruce Lee. Besides he would be in trouble if Bruce got on the inside, one parry and a few straight blows, before bouncing out.

To get a feel of Bruce's punch: You are gonna get hit....WHAM [straight, accurate and powerful and RATATAT (combos at his speed)].
To get a feel of Muhammed Ali's punch: Wait, Ready, There!!! WHAM, Bam BAM Bam BAM[accuracy and power combos].

So speed also goes to Bruce, although Ali would probably be dazed for a moment. With Bruce Lee seeking the opportunity, Ali would find it hard to duck Bruce' punches ... though he would be lucky.

Target

Bruce Lee knows all the important targets on the human body due to wing chun + WHY and HOW they work when hit. He also knows how much to hit given his experience in demonstration. In the match, these demo-hits would be the mid level feints he would pepper Ali with when he has the chance. Bruce can also do close-quarters blindfolded [wing chun]. So this means he can cut an overwhelming attack while it is performed half way.

Ali knows and has trained in the conventional targets of the face, head and torso region. So he will catch Bruce off guard with head shots and the power will keep Bruce down...if he manages to connect without Bruce parrying. Given Bruce skill in Blindfolded Chisao (wingchun)

So I will give the majority advantage to Bruce Lee again.

Power

Bruce Lee: Concentrated power, that can jab steel send a guy flying with one-inch of a punch. devastating.

Muhammed Ali: Natural western build + speed and attitude.

It's like comparing a pile driver (Lee) with a concrete I-beam (Ali). Ali has the size and speed. But Bruce is all speed and power. They are even...but Bruce's power has an advantage...a slight advantage if used in the right moment.

Still if Bruce Lee was touched...Man...Ali will pummell him unconscious...coz Ali has raw power.

Rules

Bruce Lee: He will have to duel using only boxing. No kicking, trapping, or other things. Simply...it will be the fairest fight if he fought on Ali's terms as a boxer...then within that framework...no holds barred.

Muhammed Ali [weakness]: There was one fight Ali vs Inoki, which was basically Ali, in his style fighting Inoki who was a wrestler. One obvious reason was that as a wrestler Inoki has to come in...which meant Ali could jab him down. Inoki, used another tactic was to stay low and kick at Ali's legs. Ali could barely skip away from that and took a beating on the legs many times ... was surprising that ALi's legs were rather stiff at the knee. If Bruce had kicked Ali's legs, it would have broken immediately. Besides that was the Damn Dangerous.

So it's best for all that Bruce just took the boxing aspect and then fought on Ali's terms.

[Conclusion]

Bruce Lee would win the bout...but after many rounds of interplay probably a few lucky shots by Ali. But the fight would have been even with a marginal overall win by Bruce Lee.

[Ghost]

Mano, who would beat bruce lee in your opinion?

secondly, do you think its a good idea to use a film such as Way of the Dragon and a fight against chuck norris as an example of how someone would fight in a real fight against Ali?

Thirdly, do you think bruce might struggle to hurt Ali given alis ability to absorb punishment as demonstrated in his fight against foreman?

[mano012sg]

Mano, who would beat bruce lee in your opinion?

secondly, do you think its a good idea to use a film such as Way of the Dragon and a fight against chuck norris as an example of how someone would fight in a real fight against Ali?

Thirdly, do you think bruce might struggle to hurt Ali given alis ability to absorb punishment as demonstrated in his fight against foreman?

Hi.

Ans 1
Really I am not sure who would win Bruce Lee if he were alive today. But maybe as he said it...no 60 year old you be able to push him around. But I am sure that he would have evolved his art to a point....[i'll elaborate].

You've got to look at 3 things: Aikido, Wingchun and Bruce Lee's personal fighting method (not JKD...Bruce Lee's personal concept of fighting as he fought).

Aikido: Morhei Usheiba at 90 years of age, was still tossing guys like they were nothing. He wouldn't have won a push about match...too frail right? But his skill in balancing and off-balancing, evolved to that point.

Wing Chun: Uses a similar priniciple...except this time, it directs the energy back onto the opponent...a more intricate version of aikido. Notice it emphasises relaxation and flow to build energy and flow and power? Bruce Lee mastered this in his 20s and founded JKD in his 30s.

Bruce Lee's own fighting: He was looking more for simplicity in fighting as much his skill developed. So you can imagine how much simpler and yet immensely powerfully JKD would have evolved...especially with modern knowledge and equipment, if he was alive today. JKD will be VERY different from what's currently being taught.

If he was at this age...putting all this factors into consideration....I'm really not sure if he would be untouchable or would if some new guy be able to take him on. But surely not anyone we know in the star fratenity today can match him...not even Jackie Chan or Jet Lee....although MAn...they are fantas...damn...fantas..tic!!!

Ans 2

Now for those who don't know...Bruce Lee had to always hold back his punches/kicks even during live demonstrations. He was very interested about Class, which also meant he would be showing what was conceivable and he was fully capable of. Any normal person would not show what they are newly trying out, in case they fail, and embarass themselves.

Next is the issue of Bruce's speed and power. Same thing, in demonstrations he has to hold back his power, or else he would have killed the other guy. His speed, was fast as everyone knows, but do you know that the filming took a double whammy from Bruce? First, Bruce's speed on film, was a consciously slowed down effort...coz it did not show. Second, even so, the film was sped up so that Bruce's speed was in slow-mo. and in filming he was moving fast, and powerfully without touching his opponent (acting, u noe). That was in his earlier movies.

He was 3 films experienced and obviously moved in 2 directions. One was he gained more control of his filming style. Second he did become more powerful and skilled (no doubtedly, faster and stronger) in Real Life by the time he did Way of the Dragon and Enter the Dragon. All his film speeds were his slow-mos +/(or) sped up cameras, and he did improve his own skill.

Despite all of these, what you saw in Way of the Dragon with Chuck Norris ... very probably slow-mo-ed, was still a blistering 7-8 combos a second. Anyone tries to follow him? Its not simple at all. Or it feels like you are compromising on speed or power.

That was Film, so in Real Life, all out, against World's Greatest Boxer...you do the math for speed and power generated. clash of titans

Ans 3

True...Foreman the Bear was bloody powerful. Ali could take a punch from a pro and live through it. He would take a punch from Bruce and yeah first few punches he will survive.

But Bruce is no lackey. If an estimated punch from Bruce Lee could hurt and dislocate a person's shoulder...and if the guy could hit gravel at full force...and his one-inch punch [have you seen it on you tube?] if it were extended to a full punch....

+ Bruce's strategy is not going to lend a rope-a-dope a favour. His style isn't to stand there and keep pounding. He would intercept blister-away at Ali. Especially if Ali frustrates him with a rope a dope. White man or asian...the face and ribs are pretty dangerous places to get hit...and that's where Bruce will blast at.

Bruce is well aware that ALi's punch --- if it connects --- is gonna hurt. And he's worked to avoid that in America. Besides...when Ali fought Foreman, his dancing ability was all but gone...while Bruce had full capability of 'floating & dncing'. See the next difference?

I talk about Ali in his prime...coz both Bruce and Ali could dance. But the comeback Ali...he will easily be KO-ed by Bruce.
I am not saying this to glorify Bruce or Ali...coz both are my heroes. I get pumped up seeing them you know?

[lucidmist]

I really think if anyone, including Bruce Lee, took up martial arts just to defeat someone in his or her own weight class, then it's pretty pointless doing martial arts at all.

Bruce Lee, being a small guy in America (or anywhere), would've already set handling bigger opponents as his training priority. Or put it this way: even all of us, would enforce a training regime of how to handle bigger, stronger and faster opponents. Not saying it's a sure win, but Bruce definitely would've given Ali a good run for his money. It could go both ways.

[Ghost]

although we have clear guides as to ali's ability, what are we making our judgements on Lee with, in terms of actual combat?

not taking either side right now, but does anyone feel that its harder to maintain hits per second strike rates with a moving resisting target that doest go the way you preplanned for them to go?
and perhaps its a thought that you cant punch full power and full speed on a softish target such as a punch bag or human body as you can to the air because the bag/body removes momentum, in comparison to hitting the air... just a thought.....discuss

[mano012sg]

although we have clear guides as to ali's ability, what are we making our judgements on Lee with, in terms of actual combat?

not taking either side right now, but does anyone feel that its harder to maintain hits per second strike rates with a moving resisting target that doest go the way you preplanned for them to go?
and perhaps its a thought that you cant punch full power and full speed on a softish target such as a punch bag or human body as you can to the air because the bag/body removes momentum, in comparison to hitting the air... just a thought.....discuss

Yes true buddy. A real human is a moving target that can defend himself unlike a bag. But once you get that one punch or strike in...you've have to blast with combos in that moments while the opponent is dazed or confused. Its not like hitting a bag, definitely. But its about peppering and getting out. Its about the right moment of advantage--> pepper HARD and FAST (which Bruce Lee could pull off) --> get out an wait. just like an animal.