Underhook or Overhook

[Chad W. Getz]

Advantages and disadvantages and how they play with each other. What say you? I know alot of wrestlers like the underhook. Alot of FMA like the overhook. Seems like the underhook is the counter to the overhook, and the overhook is the counter to the underhook. Being that I started out full contact in the stickfighting, it is natural for me to go into the overhook as an offensive maneuver, but when someone goes to overhook my arm, I respond with an underhook to counter their control.

??? Thoughts???

[gungfuhero]

I typically use the over hook more to imobilize the arm, and the underhook to set up a throw. But I could see them switching roles in some circumstances.

[Evilution]

I'll use the overhook if the opportunity to use it presents itself, such as when covering your face to gaurd against a punch, then go for an overhook to trap the arm momentarily. I always seek an underhook though. I personally can exercise more bodily control on my opponent with an underhook.

[Paul Sharp]

Based on my experience..., here is the order of importance for me.

1) Underhook
2) Neck Control
3) Overhook
4) Filipino 2 on 1

Stick fighting or empty hands, this the order of preference for me.

Peace,
Paul Sharp

http://www.championjiujitsu.com

[Dion]

Just a few notes on sticks...

How about a controlled underhanded overhook with a wrist snap thrown in to shatter that bone hehe... ok I shouldnt say those things but heck immobilising someone with a stick is a matter of *whack* game over hehe just like snapping a punch but the stick amplifies the power of the snap...


I have not met them myself "yet" but have seen demos of some australian stick fighters doing what they do with the sticks and well I wouldnt like to be anywhere near the end of the sticks hehe to train they have to use full body armour cause the stick blows are so damn hard and fast they will shatter bone on contact and they use 2 sticks at once and just go full on, one guy was recorded doing several bone shattering hits per second or was it more, I know it made me gasp at how fast and powerfull he was and yet he wasnt a large person..

I have been training my stick fighting along their "ways" and using a pole to strike against whilst continuing to move around it, works up quite a sweat trying to go as fast as you can... oh btw this also destorys the pole or sticks if your not carefull hehe some of the hits come in stronger than you expect at times and something gives hehe...

I now have an even more interesting weapon that I practise with called "a whip" yes a whip, I have worked with it enough that I can use the handle(bamboo) as a stick weapon, I can also grapple and detain with it and if need be I can stike out at a distance with it and well I have accidentally been on the end of my own whip and I can say "*%&@%&#@ ouch hehe"... When I have practised with it against people, they find it rather confusing as to what I am going to do with it against them seeing the possibilities are greater and if they stand back I laugh and give them a snap at their shins hehe you should really try this sometime guys, once you develop your style itll become quite a fantasy to play with, the combined grappling and striking capabilities with it are awesome hehe

oh and my whip I use is about 8 foot long from end to end and the handle(stick) is about 2 foot in length and has a hard ball on the end which provides for even nastier things that can be done but those Ill let you find if you decide to try it hehehehe...

Just some thoughts to ponder or try...

Freedom Ultimate... !

[Paul Sharp]

Sticks or no sticks, I opt for an underhook.

I have participated in numerous full contact stick fights. I wear hockey gloves and a Bauer hockey helmet with face cage. No need for full body armor.

Fact of the matter is, people like to Clinch soon after the first hit lands. As Top Dog says, "Grappling happens". I'll take an Underhook over most other things as it allows me the most control over their movements. It also allows me to set up the takedowns I do with a stick.

Lots of guy's that I have fought use an overhook to go for the infamous "fang" choke. I have found a good counter for that is the Suplex. Secure your body lock just above the hips, change levels, hip into them, solid back arch and dump them on their head. Throw your leg over, rip your stick out from under them and go to work. I've done this exact move numerous times in sparring and I usually achieve something close to a knockout from the landing. It will at the least stun them long enough to let me gain the advantage. I have also been on the receiving end of this and it always reminds me of the reason why I prefer the Underhook.

With the overhook I can only control them from the neck up. With the underhook I can control them from the waist up. With the underhook I can stop their takedown, with the overhook I can't.

Peace,
Paul Sharp

http://www.championjiujitsu.com

[Twisted up]

Paul Sharp

Paul,

I like your order of preference and I couldn't agree more.

I'm not familiar with the Filipino 2 on 1 though. Is it similar to the Greco 2 on 1?

John

[Dion]

Note: *Bone shattering strikes* each one and many a second.

What happens if your opponent suddenly opens up with say oh, I think his record was, 8 strikes a second on you and not just aiming at your stick hands or head but instead aiming for all vitals like elbow, shoulder, ribs, neck, arm, head, hand and throws in a hip down to the knee to end it...

Where will your gloves and helmet protect you there ?

These guys do not wear the armour because they are "weak", they wear it because of the pure fact that if they do not and they go full on in a spar then some serious damage will occur as each person is trying to take out the other as quick and as hard as possible, and they DO still feel it quite a bit but the armour stops the "shattering of the bone"... the school I believe is located in Northern Territory at Alice Springs in Australia, that anyhow was its last known location by myself.

This is what things sound like at the moment...

---
Hey lets go Full-Contact and we will get better.

Hey yeh ok, but hey wait don't do this and don't do that ok or we might get hurt...

I say...

yeh yeh ok the dancing hall is up the road, start there..

hehehe sorry but some points need to be made
---

This stick fighting you talk of and using no armour does not sound as full on as it is made out to be.. heck my friends and I practise sticks with sawn off sledge hammer handles (hard wood) and we do not bother with armour except for a boxing helmet to protect the actual skull but then again we pull our hits and yet if we get hit (anywhere) then so what we were obviously to slow and deserved it for being so, and our sticks had special metal attachments I made for the grappling part and to add a balance weight so the short part can provide some considerable striking power. We also use staves about 8ft tall made from hard wood as well and also we do not use armour but its not so full on with out it... armour is used when you know your now good enough to avoid things but the inevitable can happen and usually will so provide some extra provision for it not to during training so that your body doesnt get an overload of "pain".


Now after training with a lot of heavy weapons I turned back to the light weight weapons to try the speed out and to my surprise again, I shattered the light stick on first hit against a pole and im not talkign a wild swing but a snap type strike... My muscles still had the "memory" of using the heavy weapon and so exerted harder in the strike with the light weight weapon and although yes it had a good deal more power in it, there was a slight loss of control due to not being used to the weight so I balanced it and well you can imagine the possibilities hehe

*Are you wearing that armour for the fear of the damage you may get or are your wearing it through respect for the abilities of your opponent ?*

Freedom Ultimate... !

*With out control the balance can be lost and with out the balance then the control can be lost.. but with both in check then the truth in both are balanced...*

[Paul Sharp]

Twisted,
Yes it is similar to a Russian 2 on 1. Hands grasped around opponents upper arm just below the delt. I call it a Filipino 2 on 1 because I was taught this position as part of a Dumog curriculum. I didn't keep any of the other stuff so to call it a "position 3" kinda seemed silly.

Dion,
If you doubt the abilities of my opponents step up to the plate. Any of the athletes in our gym will spar with you any time. Have you ever seen any of the Dog Brothers gatherings? If so you wouldn't make idiotic statements about vital areas of the body. Any target is open, for me or my opponent, no quarter asked and none given. Our skill keeps us from serious injury. This whole thought process smells like some mystic chi crap. Simply to dangerous to fight without tons of protection, whatever dude. Eight strikes in a second? So what? I know I'm not the first to unserstand the importance of footwork, if they are truly sparring full contact so do they. If you have ever participated in any full contact sparring you realize this ability to hit 8 times a second has nothing to do with fighting. As if any opponent with a modicum of skill would just stand there and let them wail away, give me a break. Just like any other sparring we do, all targets are open it is up to me and my abilities to defend myself.

Get rid of the condescending attitude. You pop on here and babble out some zen riddle stuff, the more you say the more apparent some things become. Some talk it, some walk it. Most of the guy's on here have extensive experience sparring full contact, its easy to tell that by reading their posts. Well..., 'nuff said.

Peace,
Paul Sharp

http://www.championjiujitsu.com

[Dion]

There is never enough said about anything hehehe as I said I am very persistant, but I did expect this reply to what I said as is common for it to be taken for its literal wording and not its meaning hehe..

Umm paul "chi" or "zen" is not some mystical power Im sorry to say but it is in fact a mere NON-state of mind that one is able to control what emotion is riding them and how much adrenalin flows to a particular area hehehehehe some call it a kind of "magic" and some say its "nonsense" but there are also those who "know" exactly what they have inside but there are no real words that can describe it properly so attempts at wording it are made, I find it much easier to ride people through their emotions that I feel are in control over them and that way they feel them for themselves, remember you only say what you say as a mere reaction to something you perceive through 'programming'

*Control the dragon or the dragon *WILL* control you..*

Freedom Ultimate... !

PS: When the need arises then I shall as you say hehehe "step up to the plate" but people need to open up more first before they can accept reality, and by this I do not mean to say people are just this and that but I "mean" their acceptance in and of themselves and others, not this guy tougher this and that tougher that, there will always be someone "better" in any "competition" but inside yourself there is only one winner and one loser... YOU!

*You determine your own "fate" in any event of [life], you just have to decide which one you want each time...*

[Kevin]

Dion...

Do you walk around 24 hrs a day hehehe espousing your all knowing wisdom? ...your friends and family must be truly amused hehehe. It does wear a little thin though hehehe... These forums (in case you haven't noticed) are primarily about the exchange of info pertaining to fighting.... it is my opinion that you should stick to that topic.

How about joining us in those discussions?
A good start would be giving us some background info on yourself... laymen's terms please!!! Your zen monologue tends to make my head spin. C'mon dude.. you can do it!

I may be totally off-base on this... if my other forum members feel I'm wrong... I ask them to reply and tell me so.

Kevin
-Just some guy.. talkin' some stuff that no one can figure out.

[Dion]

Do I express myself 24hours a day... YES I do and I do not care if it wears thin to others because that just means they do not want to hear some simple truths and my friends and family are not the only ones, anyone who comes at me with ANY attitude and I do NOT care how big or strong they are or for that fact small or agile, I will bounce back exactly what they put out, be it good or bad, to my fullest ability be it "mental", "physical" or "spiritual" if someone wants to push the energy then so it shall be, I realised that I can not push "nature" and nor can anyone else but I can flow with it and enjoy the full picture not jsut part of it.

As far as information pertaining to fighting, heh read all my posts and tell me that any of what I have said does not make sense in "real world" fighting, not competition.

Ok some straight facts about me hmmm..

- 30 years old.

- Married, no children yet.

- Born and raised in the Australian Outback.

- Have fended off everything that [life] throws at me and keep coming back for more.

- Started learning to "fight" when I was 8 years old, I was taught by Aboriginals about their "way" of doing things with and without weaposn, ever seen the "head hunter boomerang" hehe it is nasty.

- Since then I grew very interested in the "arts" and kept learning more and more.

- Also taught by the aboriginals at the same time how to use my body to its fullest, some were painfull lessons but they woke me up early at the same time as gave them a laugh but they were also very serious about what they taught me, included using everything around me to survive.

- During teenage years I studied a few different "art styles" including Karate, Boxing, Jui Jitsu and Judo.

- Have served in the armed forces for about 3 years where I learnt all I could about army combat with and without weapons used by them.

- Continued my study of various "arts" through out my 20's mainly to keep myself in shape and grew more interested in Gung Fu and then went on to deiscover my own personnal style.

- I have worked on my "zen" or "chi" or as I call it my energy ever since I can remember and went into meditating every night to calm my energy and now I have gotten to the stage that I can meditate almost any moment without even trying but sometimes I let a few emotions ride.

- I have also studied weapon combat of various styles and my favourites are the Whip, Katana and sticks and staves.

- I have also been a devotee of Jun Fans "guiding ways" since I was a teenager and philosophy on a broad range as well in hopes of finding more answers to our secrets.

- I have also developed my mind up to an equal level so as to keep balance in my mind and body. I am currently a Engineer in Electronics and I.T. and have also learned many scientific principles in order to also discover our secrets.

- I have never backed down from any person and will never back down even if I get whooped then Ill get up and try again but harder cause if they didnt kill me then Im fine.

- I will protect myself and my family with my [life].

- I enjoy developing and taking myself beyond what people percieve as possible.

- I weigh about 65Kg - 70Kg and stand 6'10", I have not an ounce of fat on me, I am all muscle and bone and sinue and enjoy staying "alert" because it is much more relaxing and less stressfull on my body and mind.

- My sensitivity has increased considerably to many things and as some say by all my veins, I have a lot of "energy" of which mind you I enjoy using in many many ways, not just combat but all round in whatever I do, including some adrenaline sports

- oh and I eat like a horse hehe

So ... Who are you ?

Freedom Ultimate... !

*...[life] is a [fight], give up on one part of it and you [lose]...*

*are you looking in from the outside or out from the inside ? ... personally I like to do both...*

[Chad W. Getz]

Um, before we got into that, I was going to say, that the stickfighting we do sounds something like this:

CHAD: Hey, want to stickfight?

FRIEND: Sure.

[Going though bag to get gloves(baseball batting gloves)]

CHAD: So you want to go to the ground too?

FRIEND: Sure.

[Grass crunching under our feet as we walk to the center of the field]

[You hear your own breathing in the mask and suddenly...things get very quiet]

TAP...TAP [You tap sticks and start to move]

[You then continue to try to hit the other person as hard as possible and as many times as possible, in hopes of keeping him from hitting you]

[A few minutes later, you are hugging with some sweat on your brow, telling him that was a good shot on your arm, and asking if you caught him on the hand. He says you didn't, but you swear you caught him on the hand...maybe he just doesn't feel it yet.]

[Dion]

Ahhh I see what the confusion here is between what one is saying to the other, I am working from a different "style" guide as to that which is being talked of for training in the sticks hmmm maybe I went to deep again. Ok yes I see how you are sparring with the sticks and it is very similar to what we do when sparring and pulling. Although I also train and instruct in using the extra exertion of force added when the hips are put into the strikes with the snap flowing out through the arm of which produces a greater striking force but this we do not practise on each other full on, instead thats where the pole comes in, usually wrapped in rope (padding breaks up to quickly) to dampen the strikes so the sticks do not shatter on impact.

When I had talked of using the armour in training I was refering to wearing it so the hip tactic can be practised to go harder so that it can be practised on opponents without serious harm to your partner, of which is what I have been talking of.

*...to be dynamic is in our nature, to be static is to defy nature...*

Freedom Ultimate... !

[Kevin]

Hi Dion,

>>So ... Who are you ?

45 yrs old
male
married w/ two kids
25 yrs in the martial arts

A buddy got me started in the martial arts training me in TKD. I joined a school shortly there after and worked my way up to black belt level. Instructor moved and I bounced around a little experiencing a couple arts (Kenpo, Shotokan, Shuai Chao...). One day I read an article in Official Karate about a Sensei from Japan who was teaching Taiho Jutsu. Taiho is the composite martial art used by the Japanese Police. It trains baton, Karate strikes, throws and newaza (ground). Much of the training is done wearing Bogu(similar to Kendo armor), and strikes are done full contact. The Police compete using "shinai-like" batons, empty hand strikes, throws and submissions. The head is not a target though... Police martial art. The Sensei was a retired Captain from the Tokyo Police Dept and Champion of Taiho. At the end of the article I found that the Sensei was located near me. I trained there several yrs (1st kyu Brown) before quitting to start going to school nights(Electronics also ). I started training JKD Concepts 9 yrs ago, and continued till the middle of last year. I started training concurrently in Kali 4 yrs ago. I still train Kali (class later today). I started offering a mixed martial art class about 6 months ago. I only have a couple guys training with me presently. My primary influences are fellows like Matt Thornton, Burt Richardson, Dog Bros, Tony Blauer, etc... I try to keep the majority of my training alive against resisting opponents.

Hopefully we can learn each *other*.

Take care...
~Kev