Underhook or Overhook

[Dion]

Oh yes I do hope to learn a lot more from as many sources as I can find

Ahh another "non-violent art"... detain as quick as possible but keep them concious so they can be "judged" for their criminal act hehe this is the type of "art styling" I have been working on with my wife although I have not got a name for it, I work on "moves" that can subdue her without causing her damage but also ensure that she is aware of exactly what has been done, something like a gentle force of power that is completey unexpected yet overwhelming and it can explode if required to really put a message across.

I would like to hear more about the Taiho Jutsu style as I have not had the pleasure of its "way" of learning and do not wish to restrict myself from any possible "knowing" it holds within its own 'secrets'...

I wonder again though... your words that say "I try to keep the majority of my training alive against resisting opponents.", does this not mean you are conforming to something in order for something else to stay active ? if so then is this not being mechanical and doing that which your "reflex memory" wants to do due to it being programmed this way ? is it not true that if one sense gets to much of what it is used to then not only does it become less sensitive to those "feelings" but also loses the awareness of that part of you and so may in turn just ignore things instead of reacting to them which in turn can ultimately lead to yourself being injured due to "not feeling" it ?

*...your centre and circumference must be made as one, once this is achieved, then, there is no here nor there, there just is and be...*

To ponder...

*the moon dawns from the satin covers of night to reveal the beauties hidden outside the circle of day...*

Freedom Ultimate... !

[gungfuhero]

I think that if one were to apply judo throws such as ogoshi, tai otoshi and uchi mata that the underhook would be a good substitute for a gi grip when you are doing more of a vale tudo mode of training.

On a philosophical note, I think their is a big difference between adapting to an opponent and conforming to him. For instance, a shadow adapts by taking the shape of the object that casts it, but remains a shadow.

"Be like water my friend"

[Kevin]

>>Ahh another "non-violent art"... detain as quick as possible but keep them concious so they can be "judged" for their criminal act<<

I don't know about non-violent. It is what many would categorize as an extremely hard style. I quess they just don't want the defendents appearing in court with bruised faces.


>>I would like to hear more about the Taiho Jutsu style as I have not had the pleasure of its "way" of learning and do not wish to restrict myself from any possible "knowing" it holds within its own 'secrets'...<<

No great secret. They just address all the different "ranges" of personal combat. A combination of kobudo, karate, aikido, judo, etc... Their training follows the usual Japanese methodology of repetition, repetition, repetition... On the down side..IMO... many of their drills are dead.... they throw a punch.... lock it out... and you enter with your counter. On the positive side, much of their trainng is "full-contact". We would drill our strikes on the bogu our partner was wearing. The sparring was full contact, but we were restricted from leg and head strikes. Like I said... they addressed weapons, kicking, punching, throws and the ground grapple. A good experience that I value, but have moved on from.

>>I wonder again though... your words that say "I try to keep the majority of my training alive against resisting opponents.", does this not mean you are conforming to something in order for something else to stay active ?<<

I guess anytime you do something, someone else could argue that you are conforming to that "thing".

>> if so then is this not being mechanical and doing that which your "reflex memory" wants to do due to it being programmed this way ?<<

Well... I do want to react with a correct response.
A diagonal elbow might not be the optimal counter to a front kick. When I drill, I try to ingrain at least some of the correct reponses to a particular stimulus. But... I keep the training alive by not knowing what stimulus is coming. For example... when training focus mitts my partner feeds me the pads. He needs to be knowledgable enough to feed logical sequences. He shouldn't feed too many strikes that jump thru ranges... front kick to knee. He can sometimes... but a more logical sequence would be feeding me a front kick, jab, cross, hook.... he throws a hook, you bob and weave, triple hook, go to the plum, knee, push off and thigh kick. There my not be any *one* correct response.... but there are responses that are more sound than others... IMO. The main thing is to devote a large chunk of your training to competing against an uncooperative training partner.


>>is it not true that if one sense gets to much of what it is used to then not only does it become less sensitive to those "feelings" but also loses the awareness of that part of you and so may in turn just ignore things instead of reacting to them which in turn can ultimately lead to yourself being injured due to "not feeling" it ?<<

That's a heck of a sentence.... lost me about half way thru.

Later...
~Kev

[Kevin]

>>I wonder again though... your words that say "I try to keep the majority of my training alive against resisting opponents.", does this not mean you are conforming to something in order for something else to stay active ?<<

Train what you want to get good at... if you want to get good at countering an opponent who freezes his punches at full extension, then that is the way you should train. But, if you want to get good at defending and countering unchoreographed(sp???) multiple full power strikes... then you should train with an opponent who throws a bunch of those at you.

Later...

[Dion]

To kind of extend on the really long sentence hehe...

"...Remember, You only do something once, the rest of the time you are merely [repeating] it..."

Freedom Ultimate... !

PS: Ahh so they just gave "mixed martial arts" a different 'name' to [say] it one 'way' with Taiho Jutsu...

[Chad W. Getz]

Paul, you are talking about your empty hand underhooking someones weapon hand, right?

[Paul Sharp]

Chad,
You got it bro. If they start to whack me with the "live" hand I hit it with the stick until they cover. One of my guy's did that to me about a week ago and the bruises still have not gone away. I did land a clean left cross on him before he forced me to cover...

Ahhh, the joys of grown men kicking the crap out of each other.

Peace,
Paul Sharp

http://www.championjiujitsu.com

[Edited by Paul Sharp on 01-21-2001 at 07:45 PM]

[Dion]

Ok here is the start of my own demonstration photos, this is only a single stick 'method' I am currently presenting but will slowly put up as many different 'ways' of performing my different 'art methods' as I can in hope people will be able to pick up some of the basics hidden in them...

This is my idea of going full-on, now this single strike can and DOES shatter things on contact and also I am showing that I am not "huge" in size, just my natural structure with plenty of 'energy' for my flow...

There will be more, including videos etc, I now see people want to "see to believe fully heh" so here is the current URL for my new 'instruction' page...

http://odin.prohosting.com/~mayjor/index.htm

Freedom Ultimate... !

*...and the 'man' confronts the people with his 'warrior' spirit...*



PS: It is only 1 simple page atm so I have no comments section or any of those fancy things for the page yet hehe

[Edited by Dion on 01-22-2001 at 02:19 AM]

[Chad W. Getz]

Paul, I swear I've got to hook up with you man. You, Underdog, and Dwayne, at least will be getting a visit from me. Or at least you guys have a place to stay and guys to train with when you visit Hawaii-hint, hint.

Damn, I'm currently looking into setting up a fight gym here somewhere for people to come and train hard daily. No one sends me money though, so we start it out slowly in the park and garage, eh.

Back to over-under though. I've noticed with different people you need to have both.

So are you working an overhook-underhook, underhook-overhook, over-over, or under-under?

Do you look at what hand having more application in these than the other. I've never really thought about that before, but I do mix and for some reason seem to describe what I do as an overhook with my left arm, although my strong arm is right and that usually goes into an underhook as counter to my right arm being overhooked.

[Paul Sharp]

Chad,
Your always welcome here. I definitely need to get down or over to Hawaii. Its 20 degrees here today, this sucks!

I agree you do need both. I have a preference for underhook but will take what I can while working towards an underhook. Which, as you know, any movement in the Clinch is substantially more difficult when you are trying to hold on to your stick.

My strategy with any "attachment" is to step off on the side I have control. So if I get an underhook with my left hand I will step off sort of clockwise while moving behind them and away from their "live" hand. I am mainly focused on taking away their weapon hand while leaving mine free, but then again, aren't we all?

Here is what I do, say my opponent is throwing something on the angle one side, easiest counter is a roof block, doesn't matter how fast he thinks he is moving, an angle one is an angle one, from the roof I shoot my left shoulder into his chest and sink in my underhook, if possible I hit him a few times with my stick as I begin to circle clockwise away from his "live" hand. I really focus on digging my underhook in deep now because I am beginning to lay into him with my stick while he is off balance. If I can, I will shot putt his arm and go behind him, looking for a take down. If I miss I just whack 'em some more. I have also had some success with a side-body-lock take down using the stick. From the underhook I whack him with the stick a few times, when he covers I reach around his waist with the underhook hand and A) grab my right hand or B) grab the shaft of the stick, pull in tight to his body to lock him in, sit back, turn, throw leg over, mount and hopefully pound until time is called.

Dion,
You asked something along the lines of how can we stop what we can't see? Simple..., I can't really ever recall "seeing" my opponents stick while sparring. Chad and others may have, but I haven't. What I have seen is their hand and arm moving, and thats all I need. They are going to hit me on the left side of my body or the right, above the waist or below, other than a few variations thats about it. Train to deal with anything thrown at you on those lines and your golden. Doesn't matter how fast they are moving. My opponent must move in one of those areas to hit me, otherwise we are just doing some sort of goofy dance with some heavy sticks as a garnish. Once he makes his move I'm set. This is based on having done it and having it done to me at least several hundred times.

Chad,
I now realize I never directly answered concerning over-under. I try to keep my stick hand free until I commit to a takedown. So I really only use one hand at a time to attach to my opponent.

Also in the above example I mentioned an angle one. My angles have widened just a touch from what I was taught. I teach angle one is anything on the right side, from top of the head to waist level. Just makes it simple.

Peace,
Paul Sharp

http://www.championjiujitsu.com

[Chad W. Getz]

Originally posted by Paul Sharp
Also in the above example I mentioned an angle one. My angles have widened just a touch from what I was taught. I teach angle one is anything on the right side, from top of the head to waist level. Just makes it simple.

Amen to that.

When I charge in with a roof, I'll overhook and switch my stick to my other hand right away most of the time and often times switch my stick back and forth if need be. Not that we stand there and play ring around the rosie with our stick, but you get the idea.

This brings up another point. When we first started stickfighting, all we had to watch was the Dog Brothers. They develop a style that counters itself. For the most part. As we started training our "style" of fighting started off similar to DB because that is what we watched and that is how we learned. As we started to develop we started to have our own ideas that came up or were added on to what we had learned from DB. And obviously they don't show all of their ideas on the tape, so we (as each clan) start ot develop our own styles according to ways that we fight and train. Burt Richardson develops his own flavor which rubs off to you guys at SBG, but still the more you fight with each other you develop your own style. With your guys Greco wrestling training, its no suprise you develop an obvious appreciation for the underhook. I'm sure Randy could open my eyes and make me look at it differently.

I'll be hooking up with a wrestler some time this week.

[Kevin]

The ole switcherooo

Hi Chad,
Trying to visualize this...
You roof and overhook his rt/weapon arm with your left... then you switch your stick to your left hand?
Is this to free up your rt hand for puching, grappling, or...?

Later...
~Kev

[Dion]

Paul, umm why only 4 zones, do you not think there are some areas missing ?

Should there not be "6" zones ?

*...the 'stick' may protect your [front] but your [front] does not always look out for your [back]...*

Freedom Ultimate... !

[Chad W. Getz]

Kev, well being that most people are going to try and control the weapon arm, if you switch it behind his back to the left arm, you can get it into your left hand and it is easier to counter his attepmt to control your right hand when you are not paying attention to holding on to your stick. Your left arm overhook is attempting some sort of control directly on his hand when you start to double hand belly thrust into his midsection to provide enough space to hit a homerun or take him down/throw him.

[IslandDog]

Dion

You wrote: "As far as information pertaining to fighting, heh read all my posts and tell me that any of what I have said does not make sense in "real world" fighting, not competition."

I would take issue with the following: "What happens if your opponent suddenly opens up with say oh, I think his record was, 8 strikes a second…"

While it is possible to hit with this number of hits in this time frame, the effectiveness in full-contact stick fighting is pretty doubtful based on my experiences. The multi-strikes per second is very impressive for demonstration purposes but does not generate enough power to be truly effective in a real fight. One thing you learn very quickly when fighting full contact with sticks is that power strikes are much more devastating than quick, multi-strike hits. I will gladly take "8 strikes a second" to land one full power hit of my own.