Maybe, just maybe, people are giving him an honest answer. It would be great if everyone could train solo and develop a high degree of skill. It would also be just peachy if those x-ray glasses you buy in the back of comic books really worked.

When you have a number of people tell you from their experiance that you will only go so far training solo...., its probably true.

A guy in my gym was recently lamenting his slow progress compared to others. He trains once a week and does no conditioning or any other training outside the gym. The guy's that were smokin' him train 4-5 times a week plus solo work. There is just no comparison. Sorry.

There has to be a high school wrestling team nearby as well as a boxing gym. Either or both (optimum choice) of these venues would give him plenty of flight time.

Peace,
Paul Sharp

you have to have people to fight with to learn how to fight, and to practice doing it.

but if you want to train your punch and kick, footwork, body movement, and stuff like that, you can do that alone, but you developed it faster when you do it against somebody else.

(how about that?)>)

Completely agree with kuntawman's last statementthere.

thanks

hey im really so happy to see that so many people posted... im learning so much... thanx...
anywayz to make it more specific i want to train how to fight, but as ive read in the post i cant do it effectively without really fighting so i just want to get the best i can in training alone... that towel thing hung on the ceiling is a really great idea thanx ill go for that... im just scared though that i might be punching and kicking wrong so i might be doing bad instead of good...i also want to train to grapple but it seems really impossible to do alone... i kinda shadow grapple using my imagination, pretending theres someone there and im performing a lock or choke on him or a pillow... is there anything i can do better than this for grappling?
thanx really for all the replies i really appreciate it
btw really reason why i cant go to a school is cause my dad doesnt want me to oh well he wants me involved in another stuff not that...
thanx

sensi, I've been thinking about this subject last night.

The pillow idea with the ground is a good one. I use a kicking shield as a positional tool when I'm alone. The towel is a great idea also.

I think though, the point that Paul and kuntawman, and myself are feeling about, are that having no one to train with, lets you train what your body can do, and thats about it. Having someone throw punches, or wrestle you, or throw kicks gives you the opportunity to deal with what THEY can do. Which is another part of fighting other than focusing on what you can do.

IMO, I see three parts that we can train to deal with for a fight:

Part 1: Your Truth. What you can do. This is where we
lift weights, shadow box, shadow grapple, watch
tapes, ask questions here, work out, etc.

Part 2: Opponent's Truth. What he/she/it can do. This is
where sparring comes in, or high contact drills
that deal with correct energy, proper distance, and
real timing. Correct energy would mean the energy
that an opponent woould attack you with in an
actual fight. We can isolate the energy, and
progress the intensity of the distance, timing, and
energy, but we should always remember to keep the
energies as real and a close to what happens in a
fight as possible.

Part 3: Universal Truth. What happens. This is where
sparring at higher levels, or reality events can
come in as training assistance. Things happen.
One can twist an ankle, one can get hit, one can
bleed into his own eye, etc., etc. these are the
things that we don't have much control of. This is
where awareness, and a good sense of understanding
of adrenaline and fear can come in. You can be on
slippery ground, sun in your eyes, fatigued, broken
hand, prior injury, etc.

sensi, if your father doesn't want you taking MA classes, how would he feel about wrestling in school? Good luck.

Your three parts/truths concept is brilliant chad. Way to simplify that which seems so complex.

Sensi, do what you can. If you can find some instructional tapes or books, go for it. However, don't delude yourself by thinking that you'll become a master or that your progress will shoot through the roof. Tapes and books are about the most inefficient means of training available, but they're better than nothing. Also, don't delude yourself that by simply watching and reading that you're learning the techniques. They must be felt (on both the giving and receiving end).

What does your old man have against martial arts?

Firstly Kuntawman do look back at the post with crap in it and you will notice a 'sorry' prior to the word, this is because I did not want to direct it at you personally ok, just at part of your posting but in a rather direct way as to envoke powerfull thinking so as more truths arise about the subject...

Do we not need to first discover all of our own abilities before we strive to discover our opponents abilities ?

If we spend all of our time concentrating on what others can do to us and what we will do to them then we will forget about 'all' of the other important aspects of ourselves.

I hear talk like only being able to "train" or "shadow box" so far until it becomes futile unless you have an opponent... sorry again but again this nonsense, the opponent is like the punching bag to martial arts... it has some usefullness but if you use it to much you will begin to forget other things and conform to its way of operation...

I practise solo all the time and only spar with people on rare occasions and have had to use my skills, to a point, several times in real situations of defence and I can say that if I had not trained as I had then I would not be posting eg. my most recent "bad event" weapons(pool queues) were used against me and I had never trained for this type of situation directly but succeeded in "standing firm", I actually feel bad about it in one way but in another I say to hell with them for hitting my wife...
sheesh she is a trouble maker sometimes hehehe *kidding*

**...beauty holds its own demons that one should be weary of at all times...**

When I do spar, most times I only practise defending myself from their attacks and try applying methods that I have not done before but if they do not prove successfull in sparring then I practise the 'forms' solo until I find the grace in them then when I spar again I try them without the knowledge of my opponent so I can see if they have effect or not in different ways (gently of course). Also when solo I do not merely do 'training' kicks and punches but I practise actual combat for instance Mike Youngs method of kicking practise with a plastic bag is a great way to practise solo and because it is a dynamic training method it is never the same each time you do it so your kicking is constantly changing just like it would in combat. There are also many many other methods of training without using an opponent, it just takes imagination.

One of my old training devices was a cross made from hardwood railway sleepers which I dug into the ground and struck at random points on it with my arms and legs until it fell over, this built up my striking power quite considerably and because I had to be in different positions to kick and punch from I built up mobility of which also I developed by circling around and under the arms of the cross etc... Some times the cross springs back under the pressure from the earth and if you have not returned your striking limb fast enough it jars the heck out of you so this builds up speed as well hehe.

**Trick of thought?: ...to push the air with your motions... **

Freedom Ultimate... !




[Edited by Dion on 02-10-2001 at 05:00 PM]

Sensi a good way that I find to train my sensitivity for grappling is to use something like a low hanging branch and snake my wrist around it while at all times keeping the branch just in touching range, something like sticking hands in wing chun kung fu and in windy conditions this can provide a very complex task in keeping it in control...

**...Nature can provide a warrior with many training tools...**

Freedom Ultimate... !

Dion, Ive had enough, u are a serious tripper and sometimes it is possible to take philosophy too far until it becomes so pure, so far detached from reality that it becomes meaningless to anybody but urself. U take all this JKD philosophical 'terminology' and use it in ways that it wasnt meant for; u OVERUSE it. Its good for certain concepts as they relate to martial arts but u just take it so literally and generally rather than specifically and u use it all out of CONTEXT.

Can u call training by urself a 'way' as opposed to with another person which is also labelled another 'way'?
Thats not the 'way' that 'way' is generally meant. It doesnt mean 'option', IMHO.

THats why forms are so useless and why they are the scourge of the martial arts, because they assume that by 'performing' techniques by oneself, or by 'doing something' about combat rather than being in combat, as Lee put it, that all the skills necessary to excel in fighting are just contained in the techniques that are supposedly the right way to fight, and that can be practiced alone.

So just as a person must speak with many others many times to master a language, just as a person can only master a sport by actually playing it with others, only can somebody master martial art by 'fighting' with others and practicing their skills in motion with others.

Then again only learning from others and imitating them wont get u very far, it is individual attitude that will get u where u want to be. So solo training is important too especially since we dont have all the time and money to train full time with other people and it allows a certain amount of There are skills that are best practiced by oneself, I suppose.

Its a problem I faced as I did a lot of training on my own (and still do) before I found my JKD instructor and its hard to know exactly how u will react to an opponents movements in a fight.

I trained all my punches kicks traps etc alone and they were real fast and real powerful and my ego grew but once I sparred with a boxing instructor or trained trapping and grappling with my JKD instructor I found that I just had so many bad habits that surfaced and lacked so many of the skills that come only from experience and practicing with other people who have those skills, even though when I watched them practicing alone I judged them inferior to my own speed and power etc, they obviously had skills far superior to me because I only had the skills that come from solo training, I lacked the skills that come from actual experience.

So, Dion, I think its okay to say 'that is wrong' or 'thats not a good idea' if all the research and discussion and experience in the world supports it. What they do with that advice is up to them. Obviously the person is seeking guidance and so those kind people who wanted to guide them did so to the best of their knowledge. It has nothing to do with 'way' or style or individuality or detirmination or anything like that. It is simply a question about the nature of martial arts and human fighting, not about ones own attitude or philosophy or mentality.

"Do we not need to first discover all of our own abilities before we strive to discover our opponents abilities ?"
That sounds like crap to me. (Sorry)
Just philosophical rubbish. Who says we cant learn about both at the same time? Who say we cant study the nature of the relationship itself, rather than the one person or the other?
I swear u must just make up that sort of stuff to sound very introspective and philosophical but Im not buying it and dont think that sort of talk is very useful to anyone.

Lee said that martial art had to be about self knowledge. He also said that to know ones self is to watch ones self in motion with another person.

"I hear talk like only being able to "train" or "shadow box" so far until it becomes futile unless you have an pponent... sorry again but again this nonsense, the opponent is like the punching bag to martial arts... it has some usefullness but if you use it to much you will begin to forget other things and conform to its way of operation..."

Dion this is stupidity. Think about what u are saying. Why is it bad to conform to the motions of the bag? Its good if u want to beat the bag. But u dont. U want to beat a person. So thats ok. Dont conform to a bag. But why not conform to the motions of a living opponent? I thought that was a philosophy of JKD anyway, fit in with ur opponent. COnform to ur OPPONENT, not to the technique, not to the style, just the opponent.
What other things are there to forget? You and the opponent are the only things that matter. The fight, the relationship between two humans, that is the only thing that matters in the end and so there will never be anything, any training tool, be it a branch or a bag or a cross that will substitute for a living being, that is as long as fighting another human being is what u hope to be able to do. If u want to fight objects, then a cross or bag is all u will ever need and that will do fine.

It wasnt nonsense, it is practical knowledge from people who have gone through it and are expressing their experiences honestly. So u have no right to call it nonsense, just as they have no right to call it absolute truth, but they didnt, did they?

U are very limited and stubborn in ur idealistic way of thinking but sometimes I think that blinds u from what is.
Try to think about what u say because there is so much contradictory convoluted rubbish in ur posts (sorry).

I think too much importance is placed on what WE would DO to our opponent, when more time could be focused on being comfortable with an opponent actually doing things to us. Once one can be comfortable with an aggressive opponent, one should be able to add in their own "techniques" and then focus on what he/she can do, now that intent and the make up of a fight have been experienced.

Back when the UFC first came out, I had all these theories and concepts that I came up with about ground fighting, but I have never rolled with anyone. Now once I rolled with someone, all my theories and concepts of grappling went out the door. Why? Well, I can't see how we can train what we are going to do, if we don't know what it's like to try to do it against someone that is resisting.

ANALOGY that I use since I'm in beautiful sunny Hawaii:

I can't tell you how many tourist I see learning how to stand up on the surf boards at Waikiki beach. No local boy has ever learned to surf that way.Well, maybe you can practice standing up a few times, but after that, you need to get in the water and practice standing up and balancing on something not as sturdy as the ground while being pushed by an unpredictable force of nature. Just some of my thoughts.

As a philosophy major working for a degree...I ...
well nevermind....
(I like Monkey's post though)


Solo training or Instructor training?

Solo training is an important aspect of MA while you are UNDER the watchful eye of a qualified instructor.
Without proper guidance you develop bad habits that you are unaware of that will slow your progress.

Should you solo train? Yes, of course. I do it every day.
But....I am also a practicing judoka at a good school who works with many of the instructors on a daily basis.
The two go together. Can't have one without the other if you want to be good.

Ryu

Thank you ryu, I put a lot of careful thought into it.

But I think there are two issues being discussed.

1. Solo training vs with other people

2. Solo training vs being instructed by an instructor or in a system or style

I think its crucial to practice and spar and move with others to get good because certain skills, skills that I cannot claim to be proficient in, are only learnt from moving with another person and flowing with them in combat.
My instructors have all had these and thats because of the amount of practice they have had.

But the other thing... is it crucial to train in a system or style under a qualified instructor to become skilful in fighting? I dont think I can give a good answer but its something to think about.

"As your teacher, I can only help you explore yourself, nothing more."
- Bruce Lee