Grappling to ground fighting

[Kevin]

The popular wisdom seems to say that you need to get a thorough basis in grappling before you start adding the strikes in. I'm interested in hearing what the board's views are on this. Popular wisdom used to say that athlethes shouldn't weight train... so "they" are not always right.

How do you approach this?
Do you train for months before adding the strikes in, or do you follow a different progression?

I did alot of BJJ before adding in strikes. Is this the "best" way to learn to defend yourself on the ground?

I was thinking about maybe using a different progression for my new guys. For example...

-Teach position technique (e.g.-what the guard is, how to hold guard, escapes)
-Spar for position... (e.g.-one person starts in guard and tries to escape while other tries to maintain guard)
-Teach submissions
-Spar position w/ submissions
-Teach defense from strikes in that position
-Defend and reverse (e.g.-You have opp in guard, you defend his strikes and try to reverse position.
-Spar the position with strikes (both people strike and try to change position)
-Follow this progession with the various positions
-Ground spar
-Spar

I haven't given this alot of thought... just kinda sorting it out in my head, and throwing out some ideas.

What you guys think?

~Kev

[Edited by Kevin on 01-24-2001 at 05:06 PM]

[Chad W. Getz]

SBG guys, what do you think?

We rolled until we understood position and then started adding strikes. Not enough experience for me to have a say either or though. I know I can do it, but not sure which way would be the fastest as I only know the way we did it.

[Kevin]

Like sand thru the hour glass

Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that this progression would take place in a week or two span... maybe a matter of months?

~Kev

[Evilution]

I'm sure you've all heard the expression "position first" and I totally agree with that. You can't hit the guy if you can't control the guy. If you try to strike and you can't actually pin the guy you won't be able to strike long before he escapes. I personally think you should have a solid base in holding and changing positions and then learn the techniques used to land strikes or submit.

[Dion]

Kev, again, popular belief gets us where ?

Try it, if it works then it must hold true in its way

*...Follow the flock and one becomes the sheep...*

Freedom Ultimate... !

[Chad W. Getz]

Have any of you guys ever grappled with a guy that is wild and doesn't care about position but only hitting you with his hardest punches as fas as he can. Not even going for targets, but just being crazy and swinging at everything. I mean really wild, uncontrolled frenzy.

Put a mask on and try it. Its fun.

[Michael-dk]

strikes in grappling

In Burton Richardson's Jeet Kune Do Unlimited we train with strikes from day one. One of the reasons being, that some escapes work great without strikes, but when striking is added, you will have to adjust the escapes anyway. So why not train the escapes and other techniques with strikes.(you can work this with light open hand strikes with beginners) but it's important to keep them awere that if you're not careful you can get hit.
Also, some positions are a little different when striking is a part of the game. In The Guard (on your back), you will have to keep your attacker very close or away from you - not in the middle where you can get hit.

Michael.

[Chad W. Getz]

Great point Michael.

[Kevin]

"Get a Kick from Grappling"

Burton addresses striking on the ground in his column in Inside Kung Fu this month(April 2001 edition).

A quote from Burton...
>>If you were to teach someone how to fight on their feet, would you teach them how to strike?... if you want this student to become proficient as quickly as possible, how soon would you introduce the concept of striking? Would you wait a few years until the student's balance and movement was correct?<<

Burton goes on to say that this is what we do in grappling, and that we need to avoid bad habits by adding light palm strikes early on in our training. And as the student progresses to move up to heavier strikes while wearing the helmets.

I swear...Burton gets more good ideas from me! ....or is it the other way around?

One again Burton justifies the cost of buying IKF.

~Kev

[Maxx]

I used to think about that quite a bit, to be honest. I can't say that I've come up with the best way to train, but looking back and seeing how my personal perceptions have changed since I started really emmersing myself in grappling, I feel that the way in which I train now is highly effective, at least for me.

I personally feel that it is important to develop an understanding of basic grappling mechanics and techniques without the inclusion of strikes first. I usually don't allow my students to start adding in strikes or Kinamutan (kinomutai) for at least three to six months, based on that student's retention of the information and his ability to apply it. The reason for this is that in my opinion, when skill and experience are developed, insight is also developed. The student learns how the grappler thinks and how he will generally react to being struck, bitten or eye gouged.

Several years ago, when I first started grappling, I was training primarily with a group of PFS people. Their big theory was that kinamutan (kinomutai) could be used to counteract a grappler, and it can. I won't argue that point, but unless the person who is applying the bite or the eye gouge has some level of insight into how a grappler will react to it, or how to position himself so that he can bite in an uninterrupted manner, he could get himself into very serious trouble. If you try to bite a highly experienced grappler, he's not going to jump up off of you. He'll react by simply shifting to a position where you can't bite him. Worst of all, the fight has been escalated. He may decide to bite back, or worse.

A great deal of beginners and even advanced martial artists from various styles seem to have this notion that if they have to fight a grappler, that they'll be able to bite or strike their way to freedom. What most of these people lack, however is the insight to realize that once a grappler has you on the ground, he's not going to give that up, regardless of what you do. He's in his home territory and he can defend himself as adeptly on the ground as a boxer or kickboxer can standing up.

That is why, in my opinion, it is a good idea to expose students to a good 3-6 months of submission wrestling without strikes, prior to adding them in. That way, the student will be able to develop a basic understanding of how a grappler thinks and moves. Not only will this assist them in developing defenses, but they will also be able to recognize how unbalanced a person can become when they are throwing punches on the ground. That in itself could save a student a lot of pain and suffering if they ever happen to find themselves in that type of a situation.

Those are only a few of the advantages that I can think of with regard to isolating grappling without strikes. However, if you happen to find that diving right into striking on the ground allows you to develop you skills at optimum levels, I certainly suggest looking into some of the techniques and strategies that both Erik Paulson and Frank Shamrock use. I train under Erik on wednesday nights out here in LA, and he has some great material that involves pinning the arms which allows uninterrupted striking. I've also attended Frank Shamrock's class a couple of times up at the RAW gym in El Segundo and he has some great defenses against aggressive ground strikers. They're both definitely worth looking into.

Hope that helps.

[Chad W. Getz]

Great post Maxx.

So what do you think about gi vs no gi? I've noticed difference of styles(though not by much) between people that train gi all the time and people that train shirt and shorts. I feel that sometimes the gi grapplers are attempting to utilize my clothes ineffectively at times. Of course, I've no doubt that Royce or any of the Mr. G's could tap me out if I was wearing just a shorts, but for new students or for street application, what do you think of the relations?

[Maxx]

Thanks for the complement, Chad.

With regard to gi vs. no gi, I feel that there are valuable attributes that can be gained from training with both. I've done most of my grappling training without a gi, and let me tell you, the first time that you step into a real Brazilian Jiu Jitsu class with no previous Gi experience, it's like being hit by a truck! It's such a valuable conditioning tool simply because of the extra weight. It also makes you work harder because, as you know, it's generally made out of a thick weave of cotton which tends to restrict movement. It doesn't really seem like much at first until you really grapple someone who want's to choke you out or make you tap.

One thing that I've noticed that in my opinion is kind of foolish is that a lot of people, be they JKD people or anyone else who trains, tend to look at the gi as a liability in grappling. It is! That's one of the reasons to train with it! A lot of people see no practical use for it, but it makes you work harder, it also can be used as a weapon against you, and that's where it's real value lies. It's a lot easier to defend against a weapon if you're familiar with the particular weapon that's being used against you. If you never wore a gi before and you go into a jiu jitsu class, you'll get tapped... repeatedly, but it modifies how you fight. You learn the weaknesses of it and that can relate to heavier clothing that you may happen to wear on a daily basis.

Grappling w/o a gi is the same thing. You have to be extremely tight in technique in order to pull off a lot of submissions, because of the accumulation of sweat. You quickly find out how precise you are. If you aren't you at least become aware of the fact that changes have to be made.

These are a few of the observations that I've made. There are lots of other things I'm sure other people out there can add. One thing is for sure, if you think that grappling with a gi is hard or you don't tlike it, that's exactly the reason to do it! The attributes and knowledge you accumulate from both methods of training ar invaluable when it comes to developing one's self as a complete fighter.

Grant

[Monkey]

Dion, it is not a question of popular belief, it is a small piece of research, tapping into the knowledge of people who have a lot of practical knowledge and experience. Kevin is not trying to imitate them or copy them, or 'follow the flock', he is simply trying to gain knowledge and make use of it for himself as best he can.

Why must you sit up there in your ivory tower on a pedestal and try to sound three steps ahead of everybody with your superior way of thinking and try to make people feel small?

If something becomes popular belief, it probably has a basis in reality. Nobody said it was gospel truth but following popular belief and researching into it will get you a lot farther than ignorance!

[Monkey]

And Dion, perhaps instead of searching for ignorance in other people's knowledge, realize that you yourself are being ignorant OF other people's knowledge, by putting it down because of your own complexities.

[MikeJKD]

Kev,
I'd have to agree that you should train with strikes early on, because you want to build functional skill as early as possible. Developing a good base is critical, but keeping it, and escaping from a position is infinitely easier if the other guy is in pain. I use an acronym to teach the priorities.

S.E.R.P.S.S.

I isn't necessarily a teaching progression (although I've used it that way before), but more a list, from most important to least important on the ground. It stands for

Stabilizing (the position)
Escapes (from inferior positions)
Reversals (from inferior directly to superior)
Prevention / Protection (from submissions and their counters)
Striking (to generate pain, damage, and useful energy)
Submissions (locking and choking, taking advantage of effective use of all of the above)

Like I said, it's just the way I've arranged my students' priorities so that they focus on the technical side of the ground game before they get "tap happy." Once they understand the ins and out of the position and weight distribution, then add the ballistic elements. I've just found that it makes people more calm.
Hope that helps.
Mike