Bruce Lee Foundation - Official Jun Fan JKD

[Garland]

I haven't seen sufficient evidence to support their hypothesis, furthermore what data they did collect is suspect due to the nature of how it was sampled (they were trying to pimp their pet concept...I want to see specific numbers and how they organized their data. That was not a peer reviewed academic journal article, it was a fucking kenpo website...)

No...Bruce Lee would NOT easily beat any JKD Concept pracitioner today, in fact, with the amount of people cross-training today in different arts...Bruce would probably be simply just another talented and naturally gifted combat athlete...with a limited game. Sorry. He's dead, who fucking knows what he would've done? If he'd lived and continued to stay with what he had, instead of progress like the Inosanto camp...well...I'd go with Inosanto.

Oh, okay, yeah...get a rise out of me, bash my instructor, my instructor's lineage, and me...listen fucker...who are you to talk shit? Come out from hiding like a little bitch behind her mother's skirt, and reveal who you are. I use my real name, and my real info here. I present myself as I am...who are you? Chickenshit. Argueing over the internet is not even worth my time, hit me up if you're in SLC anytime soon...I might just take you up on that midnight golf session...just make sure to loosen up, I don't want to push anything in.

[aku aku]

Kirves,

Its nothing to do with abiding by some ancient theory.

But JKD has certain principles & has ways to evaluate techniques.

As for what works???

Do you need 30 variations on a Lead Hand Jab (Muay Thai / Savate / Panatukan / Western Boxing , etc - all different but all basically doing the same job).

Do you need 20 variations on a roundhouse/turning kick? Muay Thai, Jun Fan, Savate, Filipino Arts - all different, but all doing the same basic job and travelling the same route.

It has been Scientifically proven that the more options you learn & greater number of responses you have, the chances increase that your reactions will be slower than having one or a few responses. For example in a fight and you get defence against double lapel grap - and you have 30 responses from Krav Maga / Systema / Ju-jitsu, etc - the likelihood your reactions will be slower to respons than if you had one or two responses. Worse, if defending against several techniques in all out fight, the more responses you have can often mean the more time it takes to respond especially under stress & the more options you have logically means the higher probability you have of selecting a wrong or inappropriate response.

How do you define what works anyway? The Filipino Martial Arts contain much flashy stuff that is not useful in a real street fight, twirling sticks and fancy moves, Savate contains kicks that are not practical to use in a streetfight such as to the head, etc.

Bruce Lee's art had responses to all situations in Combat. So why the overkill - with add 10,001 new techniques. Side kick & variations from Bruce Lee why add 20 more? Punches why add 20 more? Defences why add loads more? Trapping - why add load more? Pointless.

I'd just like to make a comment in defense of jkdc.

In the class I used to go to, they didn't really do 20 different versions of everything. They had a couple of different jabs, rear leg round kicks were thai style, they only did a couple of savate kicks. They also didn't practice all the parts of all the arts either, just what fit in with the structure of what they were doing and it was seamless, if you didn't know what to look for you wouldn't know where one art ended and the next began. Not trying to say that's what Bruce would have wanted or anything but they're not really making the mess of it that you seem to believe. That being said, they also have other classes that focus on some of the other arts if that's what you're interested in.

[ASHTANGA05]

You're an IMBECILE! 100% PROVEN. Bruce Lee would not beat any JKD Concepts person today? Well Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, &practically any Original Bruce Lee student would disagree with you!

Have you seen Dan Inosanto's 5 part video/DVD series (3 JKD / 2 Kali)? Maybe not , you are an ignoramus after all. Well in them he says Bruce Lee overall he feels will NEVER be surpassed as a martial artist, he considers him that rare a person. Nobody in JKD Concepts is anywhere near BL's level, Dan Inosanto freely admits he is not even close to Bruce Lee's skill & simply cannot do many of the things he could, so where does that put those under Dan.

Bruce Lee trained for the street & understood the totality of combat 'unless a man has 3 arms & legs... we will have a different form of fighting'.

A fighter with superior attributes coupled with skill will beat another normally. Who in JKD Concepts has Bruce Lee's attributes or even close? His speed & timing? His power? Move like him?

Go ask Larry Hartsell / Richard Bustillo/ Dan Inosanto , etc what it was like to spar with Bruce Lee? Have you read 'JKD Conversations' book maybe not as you are an ignoramus - pg. 49 Larry Hartsell describes sparring with him. Numerous other books have others experiences sparring with him, etc.

Then go ask Larry , Dan, etc if they think all they have learnt since Bruce Lee passed would have done them any good against him? They will tell you NO.

Again , you are a real ignoramus have read little & I suspect a novice in JKD Concepts / MMA. In which case , leave the discussion to the experts or those knowledgable at least, & in the meantime go read & learn some more - you need it desparately.

[Garland]

You're an IMBECILE! 100% PROVEN. Bruce Lee would not beat any JKD Concepts person today? Well Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, &practically any Original Bruce Lee student would disagree with you!

Have you seen Dan Inosanto's 5 part video/DVD series (3 JKD / 2 Kali)? Maybe not , you are an ignoramus after all. Well in them he says Bruce Lee overall he feels will NEVER be surpassed as a martial artist, he considers him that rare a person. Nobody in JKD Concepts is anywhere near BL's level, Dan Inosanto freely admits he is not even close to Bruce Lee's skill & simply cannot do many of the things he could, so where does that put those under Dan.

Bruce Lee trained for the street & understood the totality of combat 'unless a man has 3 arms & legs... we will have a different form of fighting'.

A fighter with superior attributes coupled with skill will beat another normally. Who in JKD Concepts has Bruce Lee's attributes or even close? His speed & timing? His power? Move like him?

Go ask Larry Hartsell / Richard Bustillo/ Dan Inosanto , etc what it was like to spar with Bruce Lee? Have you read 'JKD Conversations' book maybe not as you are an ignoramus - pg. 49 Larry Hartsell describes sparring with him. Numerous other books have others experiences sparring with him, etc.

Then go ask Larry , Dan, etc if they think all they have learnt since Bruce Lee passed would have done them any good against him? They will tell you NO.

Again , you are a real ignoramus have read little & I suspect a novice in JKD Concepts / MMA. In which case , leave the discussion to the experts or those knowledgable at least, & in the meantime go read & learn some more - you need it desparately.

Eat a dick and choke on it...you're still hiding away. Tell me who you are, you chicken shit. post a picture.

[jubaji]

You're an IMBECILE! 100% PROVEN. Bruce Lee would not beat any JKD Concepts person today? Well in them he says Bruce Lee overall he feels will NEVER be surpassed as a martial artist, he considers him that rare a person. Nobody in JKD Concepts is anywhere near BL's level, Who in JKD Concepts has Bruce Lee's attributes or even close? His speed & timing? His power? Move like him? Again , you are a real ignoramus have read little & I suspect a novice in JKD Concepts / MMA. In which case , leave the discussion to the experts or those knowledgable at least, & in the meantime go read & learn some more - you need it desparately.

Oh, brother...


We usually don't see this kind of jock-sniffing out of anyone but hOmoPlata.


Let it go, kid.

[aseepish]

JKD has certain principles & structure , and guidelines to evaluate other arts & techniques. Not all systems or techniques fit into that structure, nor meet the criteria to be worth including.

Agreed. But to whom is it up to to make that decision? Me. That's who. I understand my own strengths and weaknesses, my own attributes, my own body-type. I do my own research and am bound by no system or instructor.

[Kirves]

^ Amen to that!

And

How do you define what works anyway?

By testing it for yourself: if a technique seems like a reasonable one that you could use, you study it, train it, incorporate it into your game (i.e. sparring with different kinds of resisting partners), and if it fits your game you keep it. That's why it's personal: it doesn't matter if it worked for Bruce Lee, your instructor or your aunt's neighbour, if it doesn't work for you, you discard it as useless. On the other hand, if it works for you, it doesn't matter if it didn't work for your aunt's neighbour, your instructor or Bruce Lee for that matter. It would be idiotic to drop it because "it wasn't listed by a dead master".

[aku aku]

Nobody in JKD Concepts is anywhere near BL's level, Dan Inosanto freely admits he is not even close to Bruce Lee's skill & simply cannot do many of the things he could, so where does that put those under Dan.

I'd be willing to bet that none of the original jkd people are near BL's level either but what does that prove?

And enough with the name calling everyone. Let's try to act like adults or something.

[Tim McFatridge]

Come on guys lets stop the names...although you have made me laugh Garland but come on man enough is enough.
Ash you quoted page 42 of the book so I wanted to respond to you.
First of all I never said Bruce implemented anything from thai boxing...what I said was he liked the kicks and the elbows. If you go back to your page 42 you will see exactly what he said about it.
Thai boxing

Pro

1. Elbows. 2. Knees. 3. Actually combat.

Con

1. The punching is not of a high caliber: the "left jab" is poor, the "uppercut" almost nonexistent, the "hook" is inadequate.
2. Gloves prevent the use of the finger jab and the palm smash.
3. Lead foot attacks lacking: no shin/knee lead attck and groin attack.
4. No grappling tactics.
5. No "under the belt" tactics.
6. Scientific economical structure is lacking. Plus lack of sophistication in cadence, timing, broken rhythm.
7. No hair pulling or scratching.

Also keep in mind that back then when Bruce was alive and studying these different arts he did not have all the technology we have today. He did not have dvd's and vcr's and he did not have the internet where he could go online and see streaming videos of all the different arts like we can today. Instead he had to watch 8mm film in order to research most of the stuff. He never travelled to Thailand in order to research the art of Thai Boxing. He based his views on the film he saw. Also on Escrima/FMA Bruce did not have a dim view of them. He did not like all the fancy stickwork like you have said. Dan has told a story of getting a call from Bruce while he was on the set of one of his films and telling Dan about him doing some really cool stuff with the stick. Dan says later when they got together Bruce showed him what he was talking about and Dan said something like yeah that's Kali... Bruce later encouraged Dan to research the FMA but again warned him not to be bound by them simply because he was Filipino.
As for your comment about Dan's students training in the arts that he refers...that is not the case either. I train and teach Catch Wrestling...Dan does not refer anyone to learn Catch, but I study it and train it and teach it. Also Dan was doing BJJ long before it became popular here in the US... before the UFC ever showed up...he was also training in Shoot Wrestling under Yori Nakamura long before the rest of the U.S. even knew what it was you know why...? because Yori (the guy who brought Shoot Fighting to the US) came to Dan's school from Japan in order to learn Jun Fan/JKD and he taught Dan and Larry Shootfighting in exchange for Jun Fan/JKD later he started teaching at Dan's school. The same is true for Thai Boxing, Dan was studying Thai Boxing under Ajarn Chai Sirisute(hope I spelled his last name right) long before Thai Boxing became popular in the U.S.
If it was not for Dan then there would be alot of arts that would not be here in the U.S. today. He is the main guy who helped most of the other arts get started in the U.S. by allowing them to teach at his school and taking them with him when he did seminars and showing their material when is is teaching different seminars.
Now for the record I under certified under Sifu Larry Hartsell but have trained with Dan on several occasions and I think he is an awesome martial artist as well as a very giving and very open person. Again do not make blanket statements about someone's students unless you have taken the time to train with each one of them. I am firmly in the concept camp and like I said before I teach Jun Fan and I teach Integrated grappling and I teach FMA. Who is your JKD teacher....nothing against Ted Wong but for the record yo uare talking about a guy who does not really like anything outside of what he learned from Bruce while Bruce was alive...thats not a bad thing in and of itself...but he refuses to grow. Also, alot of these "original" Bruce Lee students were doing nothing to keep Bruce's art alive after he died(I said alot not all). Sure they taught small backyard groups and had a few students but they were not giving seminars around the world spreading the word on Jun Fan/JKD.

Just a thought man...try not to make blanket statements like that unless you have trained firt hand with some of these guys.

[Garland]

Come on guys lets stop the names...although you have made me laugh Garland but come on man enough is enough.

Listen man...I'm sorry, but this guy started the shit when he started bashing Guro Inosanto, and took it to another level when he looked up my exact instructor to **** with me openly, from behind a terminal, with no real name posted. I post here as myself, with my real info, and under my REAL name. This guy's a shit-talking coward, I'm sorry Mr. McFatridge, but I feel obligated to stand up for myself and my instructors, especially the close ones who are like family to me.

I want to know why he thinks he's so superior, in fact, I want to see it. Let him show the whole board why he and his group are so fucking cool and have him come out in the open with his identity, or tell him to shut the **** up.

[eXcessiveForce]

Garland,

How do you think Guro Inosanto would have reacted even if ash had said what he did to his face?


as for the whole No JKDC guys could stand up to Bruce, whe neither could any OJKD guys.

If it works, use it, if it doesn't throw it out. That goes for Jun Fan as well as anything. If you show me a better way to do what I'm doing then I need to adapt.


The only reason I even talk about JKD is so that people have some clue what i'm talking about. Same way when most of the time I have to say "the stuff based on what Bruce Lee did"

All of the people named now, don't have any need to use Bruces name for anything, they are respected martial artists in their own right.

So a no named guy wants to talk harshly about respected martial artists. Obviously he isn't interested in proving they are wrong himself. Otherwise he'd show up and tell Guro Inosanto that he's going to teach him the "error of his ways"

[Tim McFatridge]

Garland..I'm just bagging on you...you always me laugh and kinda help me calm down when reading stuff on here. No need to apologize to me. I undertand taking up for your instructor and those around you. I also understand that there will always people in this world that have something negative to say about other people. Walk on my brother...you know what you know...

[John McNabney]

I have been in both camps, this is quite silly guys......If you ever respected anything that Bruce Lee was about, then you will stop all the mud slinging.....Now here some food for thought! If BL accepted these people to train under him, then thats good enough for me......I mean every single one of the OBLS, not the one's that claim to be......This one fact should change the way everyone thinks about each camp. I respect all of the OBLS, I respect Dan, because he is a educator of the arts. No matter what anyone can ever say about him, the facts are the facts......Dan has made his imprint on the world too! He has opened my eyes to different arts I would had never heard of if it wasn't for him.......and if he's doing his own thing, isn't that what Bruce Lee wanted us to finely come to.......Being instead of Doing......Something to think about my friends :-)

Take "IT" Easy,

[Garland]

How do you think Guro Inosanto would have reacted even if ash had said what he did to his face?

All of the people named now, don't have any need to use Bruces name for anything, they are respected martial artists in their own right.

So a no named guy wants to talk harshly about respected martial artists. Obviously he isn't interested in proving they are wrong himself. Otherwise he'd show up and tell Guro Inosanto that he's going to teach him the "error of his ways"

I think Guro Dan probably would probably ignore this type of thing, he has a great deal more humility and tact, not to mention more he's much more reasonable than I am. It seems like he'd let this stuff slide, especially because it's coming from a no name heckler.

No doubt...they are all incredibly accomplished and continue to progress in the martial arts community, even though they don't have the notoriety of popularity reaped mainly by Sigung Lee's movie career to fall back on.

Ha! This guy won't even reveal his real name...and whatever his bias on JKD, it came from somebody else, and is apparently part of his regular miseducation and indoctrination within this organization he's part of...here, I'll find something for you...

[Garland]

His first few posts about a Pavel Tsutoline stretching video (Systema) and an MMA conditioning regimine to follow.


His Third post was a personal attack on members of the Inosanto lineage, including one directed towards Burton in Burton's forum;

"Question for Burton - Back To Basics?
With the big debate on Original vs Concepts JKD , etc. Both have valid viewpoints.

But have Concepts people been stuck with learning 1001 new techniques, rather than perfecting the basics?

Some Concepts people seem to view Bruce Lee's methods as being outdated , alongside modern MMA type stuff. Which is a great insult to Bruce Lee.

The reality Bruce Lee could have blown away any modern JKD guy with ease , that includes you Burton, Vunak, Erik Paulson, etc. So the value of learning a zillion & one MMA techniques is? And as he could have blown away any modern JKD guy, the cross training & MMA means what exactly?

Take basics like burst jab / or finger jab, Bruce Lee practiced it thousands of times to where he could explode & take most people out. The modern JKD guy has practiced it a bit, then moved onto other things. Yourself Burton, certainly are not explosive in that sense.

Or a simple side kick to lead leg of opponent, Bruce Lee could hit & break anyones leg moving in at him, the modern JKD guy hasn't practiced it nearly enough to be able to do it, though he thinks he has.

Other basics like trapping most modern JKD guys are shit at it, that includes you Burton if we are being honest, and again no explosiveness in trapping. Bruce Lee trained it to spring on an opponent from distance & attack. Others like Matt Thornton Straight Blast say trapping does not work, as they have not practiced it hard enough to make it work; and besides if it didn't work , Bruce Lee would never have advocated it."