Bruce Lee Foundation - Official Jun Fan JKD

[eXcessiveForce]

okay, so then lets break this down.

As I understand it JKD is a continual process of evolution

So what principles are being broken? Just because Bruce was not impressed with an art doesn't mean much, he was only in his 30's when he died and obviously did not have extensive training in many arts.

So when I was taught fencing I noticed where some of the footwork came from.
Much of the trapping is from wing chun

So what about adding sections of thaiboxing break the principles. The elbows and knees seem consistent as do the low line kicks.

Bruce states that grappling should be studied further in the Tao, in his own hand written note. So training in BJJ as a range of combat that is lacking seems consistent as well.

As for the straight lead, what advantage does it have over a boxing Jab? What disadvantage. is the difference important enough to be concerned with it?



We can disagree on who knows more about JKD though, Bruce knows nothing, he is dead. The closest people to ask would be Taky, who refers everyone to Inosanto for JKD, and Inosanto. This is the senior student and the highest student. From there we have to go on too those who trained consistently with Bruce Lee, (as the evolution of the art is important the newest would actually have the most current view of the art) however others may hold important pieces that have been forgotten. As to my knowledge Linda was never involved in Teaching JKD nor was his daughter, Brandon obviously had training, but he is also dead and of no use for learning JKD.



So tell me, which principles are you refering to with each art that you are saying should not have been added to the knowledge base.

[jubaji]

Excessive Force,

You are very ignorant about BL & JKD but I commend you for being honest enough to admit it. .

Oh, everybody is ignorant but you, you nut-sucking little puke.

[Tim McFatridge]

Excessive Force,

"You are very ignorant about BL & JKD but I commend you for being honest enough to admit it."


"But don't stick a bunch of diff. arts together & call it JKD , it isn't!"

Who invented JKD? Bruce Lee, therefore who knows more about it than the founder? If people are claiming to do JKD but doing things that flat out contradict what Bruce Lee was advocating & go against the principles of JKD - it's simple it is not JKD!

Nothing wrong with studying a ton of diff. arts if you want to , just don't call it JKD thats all.

JKD Concepts : Jun Fan + Filipino Marial Arts, Brazilian JJ, Shootfighting, Savate, Muay Thai, etc = JKD according to them!

Another group : Jun Fan + Hapkido + Krav Maga + Systema + Western Wrestling + Capoiera = JKD.

Neither are JKD far from it, and are misleading the public.

Bruce Lee's writings tell us explicitly neither approach above is JKD at all.

The Lee Estate (his wife & daughter) tell you neither is JKD.

The subject of this thread Bruce Lee Foundation website tell you that neither is JKD.

Many of BL's direct students, will tell you neither above is JKD at all, far from it & definitely not what Bruce would have wanted.


You should not be bound by Bruce Lee nor anyone else, but on definitions/principles, etc of JKD who knows better than the founder of it - noone does!

The Bruce Lee Foundation is actively trying to reverse 30 years of damage to BL's martial art , done through approaches like above.

First off Ash, you really need to quit insulting people who disagree with you and do not see things your way.


Ash, as you stated above JKD Concepts : Jun Fan + Filipino Marial Arts, Brazilian JJ, Shootfighting, Savate, Muay Thai, etc = JKD according to them! I do not know why you say this...because this is not true. Not with the guys that I know of anyway. Dan and Larry do not do what you claim they do in the above statement. They do not take all these arts and blend them together and call it Jun Fan or JKD. Both are very quick to point out what they are teaching and where it comes from and neither will claim it as JKD. What they will do is show you techniques from Jun Fan/JKD and tell you what it is and where it came from and tell how how Bruce taught it and trained it...then they will say today with bjj and other arts that we have studied we can now flow into this, this and this using the philosophy of JKD...economy of motion. They do not call the blended arts JKD! If you look at Guro Inosanto's school shirts you see several different logos representing the many different arts that he teaches and draws from. He has never said that all of these arts make up JKD. Find me one place where he says that.
As for Linda Lee Caldwell trying to reverse 30 years of damage done to Bruce's art by Dan is crap. Do you know that Linda Lee Caldwell wrote Dan Inosanto a letter giving him full control to teach Bruce's art in order to keep it alive. It wasn't until after he stepped down from the Nucleus that all the bad feelings started coming about. I teach Jun Fan/JKD as it was taught to me by Mike Keller who at the time was under Dan Inosanto as well as the way it was taught to me by Larry Hartsell. Now I have also trained in Catch Wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Sambo, Muay Thai Kickboxing, Boxing, LAMECO Eskrima, Lucaylucay Kali and Inosanto-LaCoste but I do not blend these arts and call it Jun Fan/JKD. What you are claiming to be fact is nothing but a misunderstanding on your part. Again as I have said in several other post...take it upon yourself and go out and train with Dan Inosanto and train with Larry Hartsell and see what they have to offer. You are going to be in California anyway pretty soon training with Mr. Poteet why not stop by the Inosanto Academy for a free class and see what exactly they teach....while you are there contact Larry and speak with him. I am sure your eyes will be open after that.

Again stop with the insults when people disagree with you....

[eXcessiveForce]

"All of there complexness are actual futile attempts to 'arrest' and 'fix' the ever changing movements in combat and to dissect and analyze them like a corpse. Real combat is not fixed and is very much alive. Bruce Lee 1965


Jun fan is what existed prior to 1967. It was made up of Norther Praying Mantis, Southern praying mantis, choy li fut, eagle claw, western boxing, hung gar, thai boxing, wrestling, judo, jiu jitsu and several norther gung fu styles. Jeet Kune Do, the art and philosphy of Bruce Lee 1976

So much for the no thai boxing huh, If it's not part of JKD its still part of Jun Fan.


You seem to preach organized dispair,
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. when he acts, he is translating every living moment in terms of the old.


Jeet Kune Do favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms and, since it has no style, jeet kune do fits in with ALL styles. As a result, Jeet Kune Do uses all ways and is bound by none and Likewise, uses any technique or means which serves its end. In this art, efficiency is anything that scores.

[ASHTANGA05]

Excessive Force,

Thai Boxing was neither part of Jun Fan nor JKD, the only direct student of Bruce Lee claiming that is surprise , surprise - Dan Inosanto.

The Bruce Lee Estate & many other direct BL students say he is talking nonsense.

[ASHTANGA05]

Tim McFartidge,

http://www.psdtc.com/JKD/some_thoughts_about_jeet_kune_do.htm

Note at bottom the disciplines that JKD consists of at that particular centre.

Dan Inosanto certainly does teach all those arts make up JKD; he came up with the entirely bogus list of 26 arts that make up JKD.

Again, I've no problem whatsoever if you disagree with me but your ignorance is appalling on JKD.

http://www.ocjkd.com/training.htm

'JKD is finding the right art for the right place' Dan Inosanto.

He teaches Jun Fan , but also that all the arts he does are collectively JKD / or JKD Concepts - that is fact.

[aku aku]

Tim McFartidge,

http://www.psdtc.com/JKD/some_thoughts_about_jeet_kune_do.htm

Note at bottom the disciplines that JKD consists of at that particular centre.

Dan Inosanto certainly does teach all those arts make up JKD; he came up with the entirely bogus list of 26 arts that make up JKD.

Again, I've no problem whatsoever if you disagree with me but your ignorance is appalling on JKD.

http://www.ocjkd.com/training.htm

'JKD is finding the right art for the right place' Dan Inosanto.

He teaches Jun Fan , but also that all the arts he does are collectively JKD / or JKD Concepts - that is fact.

I thought those links were interesting. I especially liked these quotes:

“I stress again, I have not created or invented any kind of martial art. Jeet kune do is derived from what I have learned, plus my evaluation of it. Thus, my JKD is not confined by any kind of martial arts. On the contrary, I welcome those who like JKD to study it and improve it.” - Bruce Lee

“Jeet Kune Do uses all ways and is bound by none, and likewise uses any technique or means which serves its end. Efficiency is anything that scores.” - Bruce Lee

“The truth in combat is different for each individual. Research your own experiences for the truth. Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is specifically your own.” - Bruce Lee

[eXcessiveForce]

You didn't answer my questions,

which arts are breaking what specific principles.


Also, Inosanto published that book in 1976, that means he probably wrote it at least a year earlier. So at that point He was considered the authority on JKD. So I need you to cite a specific reference from Lee that says he did not use Thaiboxing in Jun Fan. Or at least something near 1976.

[eXcessiveForce]

It is ridiculos to attempt to pin down so-and-so's type of gung fu as "Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do," I call it jeet kue do just because I want to emphasize the notion of deciding at the right moment in order to stop the enemy at the gate.

If peopel are determined to call my actions "do" (the way), this action can be called jeet kune do....

Very Often when people talk about JKD, they are very much concerned about its title. Actually, the title is not important. It's only a symbol for the kind of martial art we study. It's just like the X,Y, and z in algebra. The emphasis should not be put on its title, but on it's effect, because that is a good mirror in which to reflect the power of JKD.


Jeet Kune Do and Thai boxing

Sure, it's a little like Thai boxing, except that if you had a gung fu fight, there never be any "round Three" sombody would be lying on the floor.

So from this quote, I reject that Bruce felt MT was crap.

Above quotes from Bruce Lee, Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee's commentaries on the marial way edited by John Little.

[Garland]

Yo...ASH...I was wondering, what the **** did you mean by that threat you issued me? Explain to me how I'm going to be out on my ass.

[Tim McFatridge]

Tim McFartidge,

http://www.psdtc.com/JKD/some_thoughts_about_jeet_kune_do.htm

Note at bottom the disciplines that JKD consists of at that particular centre.


Dan Inosanto certainly does teach all those arts make up JKD; he came up with the entirely bogus list of 26 arts that make up JKD.



Again, I've no problem whatsoever if you disagree with me but your ignorance is appalling on JKD.

http://www.ocjkd.com/training.htm

'JKD is finding the right art for the right place' Dan Inosanto.

He teaches Jun Fan , but also that all the arts he does are collectively JKD / or JKD Concepts - that is fact.

First off let me say that I know Ron (albeit not that well) and have trained with him at Larry's training camps. He teaches Jun Fan as he say that cover the different eras of Bruce. Then his JKD class he has added some Muay Thai to it as a way of countering attacks. Then when in the grappling range he has added several grappling arts...3 of which were studied by Bruce himself...(judo,jiu-jitsu and wrestling).


Have you ever trained with Dan? have you ever been to his school and taken any of his classes? Have you ever talked to the man and asked him about this? My hunch would be that you have not...you base most of what you believe on either hear say or things that you have read. I have been to his classes and have trained with him many many times...and never have I heard him say to anyone that Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do is made up of all the styles that I teaches at the academy! You can read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and see a list of styles that Bruce studied and looked into.

Again the above comment that you say is fact is not fact. He has different classes as I have said before. As far as you calling me ignorant and that my knowledge on JKD is appalling....let me ask you this...where do you get all of your information? Who do you train with that teaches you this? I know you will be training with Jerry Poteet soon but who else have you trained with or currently train with...? how long have you studied Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do? I mean study it with a actual certified instructor who is recognized by an original Burce Lee student not study it through books and videos and documentaries I mean hands on training study it. My guess would be that what ever the case it has not been very long. I have trained with Dan Inosanto and several of his students, I am certified by Larry Hartsell an original Bruce Lee student, I am also certified by Mike Keller who was formally under Dan but has stopped teaching several years back to take care of ill parents. I have also trained with some of Tim Tacketts guys here in the Dallas area and Burton Richardson...and guess what none of them are as clueless and ignorant and close minded as you...
Another thing why dont you post using your real name and give your martial bio so everyone knows your back ground...? this way you are not able to hide behind your computer when you make these insults and claims that you see mto make all the time.

[ASHTANGA05]

Tim,

As for I've never heard Dan say Jun Fan JKD is made up of all those styles.

First off to Dan Jun Fan & JKD are separate (or you want to get philosophical Jun Fan is part of the whole - JKD). Dan teaches Jun Fan separately as he does BJJ, etc.

Overall, he considers what he does Jeet Kune Do, again your ignorance is appalling! All those arts combined make up Jeet Kune Do - Jun Fan + BJJ + Muay Thai, etc.

Dan also teaches falsely & incorrectly Jeet Kune Do was originally made up of 26 arts (you can see list in 'JKD Concepts & Philosophies' by Vunak, etc).

If you look at the Bruce Lee Foundation website, you will see if you look at JKD sections - JKD is NOT made up of 26 styles, as Inosanto falsely claims.

The 26 styles nonsense , is made up by Dan , just as he made up BS like Bruce Lee's JKD Dummy (Wooden Dummy) sets , Bruce never taught 10 sets on the Wooden Dummy, thats another figment of Dan's imagination.

Why not go to Burton Richardson's part of the forum & ask him? If overall he considers what he does JKD (all those systems).

Again, Dan Inosanto NO LONGER teaches Jun Fan nor JKD at least not by name, as legally he has not got the right to do so, & will get sued if he does. It is a great & important victory , as the BL Estate & others put it - time to reverse 30 years of damage to BL's art , done primarily by Inosanto & co.

I've no problem with Dan studying every art under the sun, good for him, but calling it JKD is a great falsehood.

[eXcessiveForce]

Who cares about the Bruce Lee foundation. Bruce didn't set it up, It has nothing to do with Bruce. from everything I've seen written the very idea of preserving every technique and crystalizing it is against everything Bruce taught and believed in.

If the foundation wants to turn JKD into the classical mess and make it a dead system then so be it. And then the world can learn Inosanto JKD, or Vunak JKD or Richardson JKD or any of the other 1000's of people who will come along to say they have discovered the truth.

This is all politics and is worthless for martial artists to engage in. We Train to Hit, not to argue, not to worship the dead nor the living.

With that said, you have again failed to answer my questions. I might think you are trolling if you don't answer them soon.

[ASHTANGA05]

Excessive Force,

In Italian - 'Youaa Talkaa A Lotta Nonsensaa'!

Politics doesn't come into it that much , truth is truth. Would Bruce Lee have taken JKD the way Dan Inosanto has NO WAY! Even Inosanto admits this.

Sticking a bunch of arts together, like Dan Inosanto does IS NOT JKD.

Again, who knows more about JKD than the founder?

JKD is not an excuse to go study any old art, mix several together & you get JKD. If that is the case all MMA guys , or people cross training are JKD exponents.

As for Classical Mess, those under Inosanto are in a 'Classical Mess' looking to the great Guro (why & when he started using the Guro term , its ridiculous but anyway) - for all they need on martial arts & the vast majority under him only study the arts he does or recommends - Muay Thai, BJJ, etc.

If Dan got heavily into Capoiera , those under him would to. If Capoiera had dominated early UFC's & not BJJ, all those under Inosanto would now be doing Capoiera, as Dan would have jumped to learn it.

If JKD is doing several arts like Muay Thai , BJJ, etc + Jun Fan; then again anyone doing MMA or Cross training say in Ninjutsu + Tae Kwon Do + Krav Maga + Jun Fan is doing JKD. But are they?

As for contradicting basic principles of JKD take something like Thai Rear Kick which Bruce saw & thought it a poor technique & DID NOT include it in JKD; economy of motion? NO / good recovery NO, it leaves you open for counter the full kick is 360 degrees if you miss turning your back on opponent or even if you miss don't do full 360 but go past target still vulnerable / fast there are faster ways to kick obviously same line / poor technique to use at start of fight / usually telegraphed, etc, etc. Bruce Lee's roundhouse/turning kicks are nothing whatsoever like rear Thai Kick. Could list 1000 techniques from these arts that contradict basic principles of JKD , as laid out by the founder .

More to the point - Bruce Lee saw a lot of those techniques & arts himself; as he is the founder of JKD , if he discarded a technique he must have a sound reason - it contradicts basic JKD principles, etc.

Along comes 'Jack Of All Trades ' Guro Dan, saying study the whole art of Thai Boxing / Savate / BJJ / Filipino Martial arts, who cares what he says? He was not the founder of JKD , and has gone very much against Bruce Lee's principles.

[eXcessiveForce]

so without studying the art, how would you determine what techniques the art contained that would be useful to you in JKD?