Bruce Lee Foundation - Official Jun Fan JKD

[ASHTANGA05]

The Bruce Lee Foundation is a great idea like the Nucleus, and will be a good 'source' for people wanting to learn Jun Fan JKD.

What does everyone think about it? And its forerunner the Nucleus.

The only reservation I would have if they recognise instructors that are generally regarded as being uttterly bogus - Jerry Beasley, Lamar Davis, Gary Dill, Howard Williams, Layton West, etc. I've spoken to someone at the Foundation, and was informed as far as they can say , there is no chance any of those individuals will ever get certified by the Bruce Lee Foundation. They are not recognised nor taken seriously as JKD instructors and are merely cashing in on the name.

http://www.martialartskoncepts.com/html/extras.htm

Read all Backlash parts, etc.

That is my only concern that some of the highly suspect instructors could get certified , but it seems very doubtful they would ; and many of the most 'suspect' instructors not suprisingly have the biggest mouths e.g. Lamar Davies, not the sort of people you want in an official organisation representing Bruce Lee's art.

[eXcessiveForce]

If I can do it, does it matter if it's official?


It seems to be all about money, too bad.

[Tim McFatridge]

I think they have some good ideas and good goals. I did not like the Nucleus only because I personally knew people who paid their money to become a member and once they received their certificate they hung it on the wall and would tell their students that they were authorized to teach Jun Fan. I guess I just did not like them sending certificates to peopleshowing they were members. My main concern with the BLF now is that I am hoping they do not set themselves up as the only way of becoming certified to teach Jun Fan/JKD. I know there is a need for them and they have every right to do what they are doing as a way of insuring that the history of Bruce Lee is kept alive. I am certified by Larry Hartsell and Mike Keller ( who was under Dan)and I am not worried about not being able to teach what I know because I will always do that. I have spoken to one of the board members and asked them about this and he assured me that Dan will be recognized by the organization as well as all his instructors and students under him. I only hope that does not change.

[thtackett]

We never gave out certificates in JKD. Some of the instructors who were on the board of the BLEF gave out a piece of paper that said that so and so was a "source" to learn JKD, but it didn't mean that the person was certified by the board, just by his teacher. A teacher like Ted Wong would give his own certificate as well as the source one. It was just a way for people to know where they could learn some JKD. Many of the instructors who were on the board like Bremer, Kent and myself chose not to give out a source certificate as there was not set standard as to what each one who was a "source" would have to know to be a "source".

[ASHTANGA05]

Tim,

Dan Inosanto NO LONGER teaches Jeet Kune Do ! At least by name he is not allowed to use the name nor the JKD logo. He has replaced it with different logo globe with circle round it & name.

As for Dan being recognised by BLF, I doubt it very much but you never know. Look at the website JKD is not 26 arts, etc. Also look at things like Teri Tom's Straight Lead book where the BLF is trying to reverse 30 years of damage to Bruce Lee's art ( and that is according to them damage done mainly by Dan Inosanto & those under him). So seems unlikely they will recognise him.

If someone with no knowledge at all of JKD wanted to research it for say an article or book, they could buy 20 recent books & 20 recent DVD's , not realising 95% of what is in them was never even taught by Bruce Lee! That's the problem. Different approaches are fine, but people are using the name JKD & BL name (& often his image) to promote their books or DVD's that have basically nothing that BL actually taught in his lifetime. If the BLF can be a 'Source' of what BL actually did teach, then it can only be a good thing.

Examples :

Larry Hartsell Books/DVD's.
Paul Vunak books/DVD's.
Burton Richardson books/DVD's.
etc, etc

All contain little if anything BL actually taught! But they are popular and sell well so it's easy for people to be mislead or get confused over what BL actually taught in his lifetime.

Even say an early video like Jun Fan Kickboxing Vol.1 (from Panther) from Paul Vunak, has very little in it BL actually taught, yet he refers to BL's martial art throughout the video as if BL taught that stuff. He does boxing punches like jab, etc (Not the Straight Lead), Savate kicks, etc. I remember lending it to someone once they commented - 'good video, but I see nothing unique at all about BL's martial art'! And you can see why - ordrinary boxing punches not what BL taught , etc but under the name Jun Fan and with mention of BL , it is very misleading to people.

If people are teaching in their DVD's 95% material (or even 100% sometimes) material BL never taught in his lifetime i.e. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Thai Boxing, Shootfighting, etc; why use the JKD name or BL name, or his image - a photo of him on the cover? Because it sells of course, but that doesn't make it right. People are basically releasing any old thing under the JKD name - go ofF study with the Gracies or Machados, then Savate in France , & stick out a JKD video with nothing but that on it, THATS THE REAL PROBLEM.

[ASHTANGA05]

Above post for Tim Mcfatridge (just put Tim & Tim Tackett posted below him).

[Tim McFatridge]

Hey ASHTANGA, you are right that Dan is not allowed to use the name Jeet Kune Do any longer. He now calls it Jeet Kuen Do (or something very close to that) I can not remember. However he does teach Jun Fan just the way Bruce taught it if you are take that class at his academy. When you train with him at a seminar he teaches whatever the host would like him to teach. I know we have had him in for seminars before and told him that we wanted him to do both days on Jun Fan and he did it without any problems and everyone loved it. Larry Hartsell will teach straight Jun Fan as well if you ask him. Most of his classes are privates or semi privates or small classes that he teaches at the Inosanto Academy where most of the time(not all) the student will ask for specific things. Again I have had him several times for seminars and had him teach straight Jun Fan one day then turn him lose the second day to teach whatever he wants. He is always quick to point out that "this is from Jun Fan, this is how Bruce taught it", or "this is from shoot" he makes it a point to let everyone know where the material is cooming from that he teaches. As for the videos I have seen of Dan he makes it a point to inform people where the material he is showing comes from. However I do understand what you are saying about the bs videos out there. I remember a friend of mine let me borrow a video of this guy named Alan Ground, the video was called Jeet Kune Do - "Ground Fighting" it turns out after watching the video he showed zero Jun Fan/JKD for the entire video. Instead he had nothing but BJJ on it. The reason it was called Ground Fighting was because his last name was Ground. So I completely understand about that. There are alot of instructors out there claiming to be "JKD certified" then you talk to them or go to there school and find out they trianed with someone for 3 months or they have a couple of seminar certificates hanging on the wall and now they are experts. Makes me crazy!

[Tim McFatridge]

Tim Tackett, those certificates must be what I was talking about. There were a couple of guys in Dallas and Austin who had certificates they had gotten thru the Nucleus back when it was around. Anyway they had them framed and hung on the wall and the wording of the certificates made it sound like they were able to teach Jun Fan with permission...(to the average new comer it did anyway) I had known these particular guys for sometime and knew that they did not have a clue about Jun Fan/JKD...that was my biggest complaint about the orginzation before. I thought some of that stuff added to the confusion.

[ksmith]

big words when you are hiding

ASHTANGA05- you choose to down certain people that might not be on this sight, ie... Lamar Davis. So it seems to me that here you have the big mouth and are the blowhard. I train with Sifu Lamar and he is nothing like you try and make him out to be. He teaches true and pure JKD not watered down mixed with junk JKD like some are trying to say is ok. Remember the X and Y letter that Bruce Lee wrote to a student that wanted to do this very thing:

X is Jeet Kune Do.
Y is the style that you will represent.

To represent and teach Y, one
should drill its members according
to the preaching of Y.

This is the same with anyone
who is qualified and has been
approved to represent X.

To justify by interfusing X and Y
is basically the denying of
Y ......... but still calling
it Y.

A man, as you put it, is one
who is noble to stick to the
road he has chosen.

A garden of rose will yield
rose, and a gardne of violets
will yield violets.


Sifu Lamar is against this and due to his convictions about it will not mix and mingle to please the masses. If I want to train with someone that does this he says ok; but I am not to teach the junk JKD that I learned from that person and pass it off as true JKD. As far as being recognized he is by many OBLS with proof to back it up. The BLF is all about money and what a few people want to call JKD and how they can control this to et more money. They don't want to recognize anyone that has CHARACTER and STRENGTH. They want yes men; like you. No one can control JKD it is an art. No one can ban the use of the term JKD. Who is teaching the correct JKD version? Ted Wong teaches different JKD from Jerry Poteet who teaches different JKD from Jesse Glover etc... Each student learned in a different manner as well as in a different period of Bruce Lee's life (Seattle- Oakland- LA Chinatown). So unless you choose to confront Sifu Lamar "in person" and not hide in a forum you are the loudmouth. You are

KENT

[ASHTANGA05]

Kent Smith,

Regarding Lamar Davies read :-

http://www.martialartskoncepts.com/html/articles/kuttingedge/fromthesource.htm

http://www.martialartskoncepts.com/html/extras.htm

Read Backlash parts in the latter too.

And saved the best for last :-

http://www.martialartskoncepts.com/html/articles/kuttingedge/lamardavis.htm

NOTE : Lamar actively pursued certification under DAN INOSANTO ! If he had got it, he would be an Instructor under Dan now. Lamar realised he did not want to travel to get to seminars with Dan , etc & not have to wait years to get certified, when he could get it really quick from others. To become full Instructor under Dan Inosanto has taken most people 10 years +. Dan Inosanto / Paula Inosanto & practically everyone under Inosanto - Vunak, etc DO NOT recognise Lamar as a JKD Instructor , nor do they consider him knowledgable.

Regarding Lamar's certification :-

http://www.hardcorejkd.com/certifications.php

All HIGHLY SUSPECT & not exactly very authoritive!

Leo Fong - he was never certified nor authorised to teach & it is highly questionable if he even studied with Bruce Lee much or learnt that much from him. Cerificate is from year 2000 , it appears Leo jumped on the JKD band wagon as years ago he did not certify anyone in Jun Fan / JKD.

Jerry Poteet / Steve Golden - I have heard Steve Golden does not certify people. Also Jerry Poteet DOES NOT recognise that certificate nor Lamar Davis as being a Full Instructor; in fact Jerry would rather he not show it as supposed proof of his certification.

Joseph Cowles - how long he studied with Lee & how much he learnt very questionable. Besides what he does he does not even call JKD for a reason, he has changed & added a lot of things. He calls it Wu Wei Gung Fu & himself a Shodai in it.

Patrick Strong - trained with Lee very little , many at the times he is meant to have trained with Bruce Lee say 'Patrick who?', they never heard of him. Studied Wing Chun a lot with Hawkings Cheung , and other things but passes a lot of it off as 'Bruce taught me this........'. It appears what he actually learnt direct from Bruce Lee & not since is very limited indeed. Does have an amazing memory though! he can recall exact conversations when he studied with Lee at young age he claims he was 17 when he started training with Bruce Lee , others say younger - at around 60 he can recall amazingly when Bruce said...... (exact speeches/ technique explanations, etc) from 40+ years ago!

All above were NEVER cerified by Bruce Lee to teach!

Besides the obvious question - HOW LONG EXACTLY DID LAMAR DAVIS TRAIN WITH THOSE PEOPLE HE GOT CERTIFIED BY? Why don't you ask him yourself, as he appears very evasive on it. Or the all the other Original BL students he claims to have studied with? Anyone can go to seminars with numerous diff. OBLS & say they studied undser them, but it doesn't mean all that much. On Lamar's bio on his website he claims to have studied under Jesse Glover - according to Jesse he sat at the side of a seminar taking notes only!

Lamar certainly has a 'Bigmouth' it is widely acknowledged , and he has a bad reputation because of it - you need only look at some of the things he has said in interviews or on his forum regarding others. Many do not like him nor his attitude, not my opinion just known fact.

Is Lamar a good teacher? I'm sure he is , he has many students, but that means little in relation to the JKD factor.

[ASHTANGA05]

Kent Smith ,

Strange too you would say the Bruce Lee Foundation is all about money ? When Lamar's Hardcore JKD is widely considered being all about money! As well as being one of the most expensive JKD groups to study with.

[Garland]

Say what you want...I'm loyal to Guro Dan and his lineage. All of this infighting between JKD organizations seems unfounded, and yeah, I have heard of and seen a few people claim to be JKD practitioners simply by reading the Tao and applying it to themselves. JKD concepts is what Dan taught. JKD, as I've come to understand it, is not a style or art, simply a means of bringing things together. Right?

[Garland]

On top of that, with being a concept that's supposed to adapt, grow and change...wouldn't it follow that it would encorporate things even after the founder's death...wouldn't that be the best way to follow his lead, to not let things stagnate and follow his advice? In my mind, that's key to keeping Sigung Lee's brainchild and life's work alive...otherwise, the Jun Fan shit would've stuck...and, sorry, I frankly don't see it being more applicaple without being incorporated with these other arts.

[ASHTANGA05]

Garland,

Define the 'Concept' you speak of? Read my posts here :-

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=21366

JKD IS NOT MMA , big difference.

If JKD is just studying any old art , and cross training in several , then any MMA guy is doing JKD, and there was no real point/significance/uniqueness to Bruce Lee's approach to martial arts.

Bruce Lee laid out certain principles for JKD , even if you say add a lot to what he was doing in his lifetime; it has to fit in with the existing structure.

People in the so called 'Concepts' method are NOT doing this , they are studying WHOLE ARTS not just taking a few techniques that fit the structure of JKD - they study ALL Thai Boxing / All BJJ Brazilian JJ / All Filipino Martial Arts , etc (see Inosanto site , no less than 10! Core Arts). Anyone saying all techniques from those arts fit the structure of JKD - is deluded!

Besides the founder took a very dim view of Thai Boxing, Escrima for example.

If JKD is studying all those arts then take away Jun Fan & you still have JKD , what is it essential for, at least according to their logic.

As in above link to posts - its a real problem people in Inosanto's lineage are releasing DVD's/books with techniques mainly or exclusively from those 10 core arts & calling in JKD, many have picture of Bruce Lee on cover or make refernce to him in them often. It is misleading & ultimately damaging to Bruce Lee's martial art. If that is truly JKD, then any video on Cross Training or MMA is JKD also (even without the JKD name or BL picture on the cover).

[Garland]

If JKD is just studying any old art , and cross training in several , then any MMA guy is doing JKD, and there was no real point/significance/uniqueness to Bruce Lee's approach to martial arts.

People in the so called 'Concepts' method are NOT doing this , they are studying WHOLE ARTS not just taking a few techniques that fit the structure of JKD - they study ALL Thai Boxing / All BJJ Brazilian JJ / All Filipino Martial Arts , etc (see Inosanto site , no less than 10! Core Arts). Anyone saying all techniques from those arts fit the structure of JKD - is deluded!

Besides the founder took a very dim view of Thai Boxing, Escrima for example.

If JKD is studying all those arts then take away Jun Fan & you still have JKD , what is it essential for, at least according to their logic.

If that is truly JKD, then any video on Cross Training or MMA is JKD also (even without the JKD name or BL picture on the cover).

1) Bruce Lee's concepts about taking techniques from many martial arts preceeded the whole MMA craze. It was a novel idea at it's conception, and, like all good ideas it's essentially been re-expressed, this time by the MMA pioneers looking to become better combat athletes. So yeah, I'd say there are indisputable parallels.

2) They study the whole arts seperately, not as part of JKD. They can later encorporate those techniques that best suit them and their purposes and attributes into their own game...if JKD is simply what Bruce Lee taught before his death...how fucking practical would it be now? Even if what you say about Guro Dan and his lineage is true...I'd argue he did a whole lot more to create a better system of training multiple arts and utilizing their techniques in an efficient and personal manner than Bruce did during his lifetime. Guro Inosanto picked up where Bruce left off.

3) I don't buy that, cite your source.

4) JKD is not a series of techniques, it is simply a framework of how to organize and utilize tools found in martial arts systems, as well as philosophies on fighting in general, i.e. timing, rythm, and strategies and tactics, i.e. the whole ABC, ABD, etc...

5) A rose by any other name.