Trapping while in the tie up

[Tim McFatridge]

Just wanted to ask the question... do any of you train your trapping while in the tie-up position/clinch? Just curious really. I have trained with Larry Hartsell for a long time and he really likes to use the trapping while in the tie up position and even in his ground work. So I was wondering how many of you do this?

[ASHTANGA05]

Tim,

You mean tie up opponent with rope then trap them? After tying them up , no need nor point to trap them just hit them!

But seriously , it is important to practice like that no just from fixed reference points (as in Enter the Dragon crossed hands) as many do all the time. Also to apply trapping in sparring not just doing drills.

People say trapping doesn't work it does! But takes serious practice to make it efficient.

In UFC, Pride, MMA comps you see trapping all the time in clinches & tie up situations, just it appears crude as hell! Most MMA competitors have no skill in trapping as in Wing Chun/JKD, etc , thats why you rarely if ever see traps like that.

Bruce discarded trapping later in his life, but that was for him personally , he was at the point where he no longer needed it, he could land anytime at will, so no need to remove obstruction with trapping, and moved so fast unlikely anyone is going to make contact with his arms to cause an obstruction, but for the rest of us mere mortals it is needed!

[Tim McFatridge]

Bruce discarded trapping later in his life, but that was for him personally , he was at the point where he no longer needed it, he could land anytime at will, so no need to remove obstruction with trapping, and moved so fast unlikely anyone is going to make contact with his arms to cause an obstruction, but for the rest of us mere mortals it is needed![/QUOTE]

Where did you hear that Bruce discarded trapping? I would like to read that for myself...no offense. I know Ted Wong does not teach trapping to his guys because he says it is not needed. However I have never seen anywhere where Bruce discarded trapping. Neither Larry or Dan have ever said that either.
Larry has said before that Bruce would use trapping when ever he was working on grappling.
As for training the trapping, we train it from the different reference points as well as from the jab, the jab-cross and the jab-hook. We will do drills where we go from one side of the fllor to the other staying in the same lead then with us switching leads then with us circling our opponets as we trap them...you could also call this zoning off. Then we will put on some lightweight gloves and free spar where one person can use his hands and feet and the other person can only use foot work and his trapping. It allows them to work on there timing and bridging the gap. Once they bridge the gap and are inside they can do whatever they want. Really makes you work extra hard when the other person knows you can only work your trapping.

[ASHTANGA05]

Hi Tim,

http://www.kungfuonline.com/print.php?article=53

Read down part on Bruce discarding trapping. There have been OBLS stated that is the case also but those were in printed interviews will try find links if any are online when I get the chance.

He neither taught nor practiced trapping in his latter years that much is certain, he had no need for it.

[Thai Bri]

Trapping? Now that's one of those things that is effective in theory, but rarely in practice. Heres a few thoughts.

People who expound the use of trapping look at any close contact between fighters and, if something good happens, they claim that "trapping" was there. But merely having the limbs entwined a bit happens all the time in fighting, and people who haven't done a jot of "trapping" deal with it..... so why claim that "trapping" was responsible. Pride, UFC and MMA do not use trapping all th time. Yes, their limbs get all tied up and, yes, they deal with it! But they don't do those supposedly essential fancy trapping drills to develop it.

Imagine I designed a new way to train punches. I could call it "Papping!" and it might involve taking hold of a pair of pom poms, dressing like a chearler and then doing a cheerleading routine....... So, when I look at UFC, Pride and MMA and watch them punch each other.... does that mean I can say "See! They all do Papping!" Of course not.

Again, JKD is a bugger for leaching off MMA. I've heard before things like "Well, MMA is basically JKD, because they're taking the best bits from here and there...." Again, self delusion crepping in. MMA is MMA. If JKD cut the mustrad then the explosion of UFC type events in the 90's wouldn't have happened, because these cross training JKD guys would have cleaned up and claimed all those new customers for themselves!

Bruce Lee discarded it because he no longer had a need for it? Circular argument. No doubt he didn't actually need a lead hand jab, but he hardly rejected it. Now I don't know if he discarded it or not..... But I do know that no one has a need for it. That is a sad excuse for the lack of trapping in his training as he developed.

Now the most basic of so called "traps" can be effective in a real go, like snatching someones lead hand down with your lead hand, and then punching them in the head with your other hand.... But all that pattacake stylised training nonsense? Do we need to do that? Again, do we need to go papping to learn how to punch? I hope not!

These trapping drills are a waste of time. If it wasn't the MMA guys WOULD surely use it because it is in the rules and would help them win fights. But they don't, because it doesn't.

Now many people like to train the "art" side of martial arts in favour of the "martial" bit. That's fine. Keep it up! But don't kid yourself that the stylised trapping routines are "essential" in any way, shape or form. And don't kid yourself that the people who definately do NOT perform these training methods actually do "trapping" all along. Coz that's just a load of Pap!

[eXcessiveForce]

Basic trapping seems to work just fine in an alive environment. I have never done the drills from a reference point much, except in the very beginning just to get the idea of what the thought behind it was.

Pak's seem to be valid, As do lops, and juts. seems people seem to use them in different styles.

Bong saos are pretty much standard moves when you screw up, and tan sao's are in most traditional systems.

i think trapping has it's place, it seems to work very well on people who do not know much or any martial arts. (self defense) but it is much harder against martial artists who know about it.

I don't really think trapping is anything more than the definition of a range that already existed and some of the techniques that are carried out in that range.

Now the idea that you will always be able to use a trap, or get fancy isn't likely, as with everything there is a time and place. The best technique at the wrong time still results in failure

[John McNabney]

Tim......To me people sometimes don't get "IT" about trapping......If I put sugar in water and it dissvolves.... Does that mean it is no longer there? I don't think so!...... As far as Bruce Lee no longer using trapping as a means of hitting......Well when one is so refine in timing, rhythm and action of self..... Until they come up to someone faster them, mite not need to engage in that principles.......Lets all not forget that we do not hit to trap, but always thinking of hitting.......before and after, a trap!....This purpose is to keep on hitting....... The principles of JKD is only three ranges (don't like that word)......Long-Med.-Short that it, nothing else......Trapping is the bi-product of hitting........nothing more and nothing less....

Also, if Bruce Lee could do that without trapping great for him, but we are not him and He didn't want us to be like him anyway........Something to think about!



Take "IT" Easy,

[Tim McFatridge]

Hey John...I agree some people really just DON'T GET IT...Thai Bri...you say trapping is nonsense and there is no need for it because it is basically useless and does not work. Just because you do not see guys in the UFC using it does not mean that it is useless and doesn't work. Go back and watch some of Erik Paulson's fights and you will see him use trapping quiet a bit whenever he is in the tie up position with some. I think you are misunderstanding what trapping is. I personally have used trapping in several local grappling tournaments I competed in back in the late 90's and it worked very well for me. I also use trapping while on the ground and again it works very well for me. Also Thai you described trapping as "snatching someones lead hand down with your lead hand and hitting them in the head with your other hand" this is not trapping. That is more along the lines of a parry or a scoop. Trapping is when you have one or both hands of your opponent trapped so you can hit him or take him down. Also do a search for Jack Dempsey and watch some of his fights (he was a boxer back in the era of 1919 to 1940) and you will see him do what people called the Dempsey shuffle. He move into close range and hit the guy then slap the guy's bicep trapping it then hit him with the other hand then use the other hand to trap again then hit him with his other hand...was very effective for him.

You are right John...trapping is what it is...a bi-product of hitting. Traps happen when they happen and they work.

[aku aku]

I was told that Bruce reached the point where he could trap someone without touching him. He would feint in such a way that the opponants reaction would get his own arms crossed up. Does anyone know if this is true?

[Thai Bri]

It is about as true as the phrase "trapping works."

Some people just don't get it. That Emperors dressed beautifully! It's only idiots like me that can't see the clothes.

[NuffSpeed]

I guess it all depends on your definition of trapping. I think what Bri Thai is referring to is wingchun type trapping-- pak sao, lop sao etc.... I don't think I've ever seen them attempted in an MMA fight either. Personally, I've trained many many hours of trapping drills, and trained them in sparring just as much. For me, these are not techniques I use, they are too intricate and opponent reliant for me. On the other hand, I have always been more focused on my boxing and Muay Thai as far as closing that range in standup, but the energy drills really helped me with the clinch and ground. As far as the original question, my answer would be YES. I've trained several times with Larry Hartsell and I've taken alot of great clinch/tie up techniques from my time with him. I find the "trapping" works much better in this range for me.

[Tim McFatridge]

NuffSpeed...that is the range I am talking about. I, like you have trained my trapping for many many hours and have also trained it from sparring. What I was wanting to talk about was using your trapping in the tie up position. Not to bridge the gap or close the range. I am talking about once you are inside and you are both in tie up/clinch range. No offense Thai Bri...I did not mean to sound like I was baggin on you. I also like to use my boxing and footwork as a way to counter the tie up. Like to move around alot in this position in order to make it harder for my opponent to set up a throw or takedown as well as harder for him to land any really good knees.

[NuffSpeed]

Sorry Tim, I was responding to all of the posts I read in the thread, and ended up with a mashed up response of jibberish, replying to too many statements at once, but anyway...share some of your favourite techniques from tie up.

[Tim McFatridge]

NuffSpeed...atleast you can make sense of what you posted. When I do that I have to go back and read it then make a new post... You asked for some of my favorites from tie up...man there is alot of stuff I like to work on when in the tie up. I think that has to be my favorite position to work on. Well if we are talking boxing or striking: Both men are in tie up my right hand on his neck and left hand on his right arm...I like to use my left hand to throw a quick short left hook to his head since my right hand is pretty much making sure his head is going to be there then like to follow it up immediately with a left uppercut. The way I work my trapping when I am striking in this instance is I throw the left hook, then the left uppercut then my left hand keeps moving upward and I place it on top of his left arm trapping it down and hit with a overhand right. Thats one. Will wait and here from the rest of you and see what you guys like.

[09jacob]

Even if trapping didn't work it is a good way to build reflexes.
I, personally, have used pak sao very much.
And I believe if it helps in any way, I should use it, like everyone else on here should think.