Kino Mutai

[Badger]

What is this all about-I mean theres more to it than biting & eye-gouging,right?







Badger

[Chad W. Getz]

Paul Vunak has a good article out in one of the mags out now.

[aseepish]

The way Vu teaches it (he goes into it in the Sierra Summit series) is to focus where and when to bite/gouge. Biting is to be done only when you are in a position to "bite uniterrupted." That is, to bite from such a position where your opponent is in no position to bite you back. This is more complicated than it sounds. Most of it is in a ground-fighting context. There are some pretty nasty flow drills

-Tony

[Chad W. Getz]

When and where to bite.

Also, with blood born diseases also, it may be a wise decision to start experimenting in places that you can gnaw(bite without breaking the skin) at to cause either extreme pain or discomfort in order to make the guy reposition himself and give you opportunity. Same with pinching, and digging your chin, etc. into body areas. Some places are worth it while others aren't.

[Dion]

Oh boy, sorry to hear such a literal twist to what has been written about "biting". If this has arisen due to my texts about the "dog biting" etc then please I implore you to go back and read them again and this time think laterally not literally. The [bite] is just another way of saying "a vicious strike" or similar, in other words... the dog goes at it hell for leather with no regard to what is around them at the time to use as a weapon, they merely use everything they are to be a weapon themselves and it happens that their bite is VERY effective, oh is it not said that the hiena has the most powerfull bite in the animal kingdom with some 1800 pounds per square inch of pressure exerted when they apply it, same holds true for any one of our [parts], apply it to the fullest and oh boy look out.....

Please do not take my texts out of context like this, they are meant to be thought provokers not defence provokers that say oh this style is that and that is dirty this.. etc.

Freedom Ultimate... !



PS: Watching someone have their teeth ripped out due to a bite or have their fingers literally torn from their sockets from a gouge is NOT pleasent ... please please please do not take my texts out of context... as I have said many times, mother nature does not show mercy and is unrelenting to say the least and if you push her, no matter what the way then she WILL strike back...

[Paul Sharp]

Dion,
????????????????????

Badger,
Kina mutai is supposed to be a sub sect of the Filipino martial arts focusing on biting, pinching and eye gouging. Vu' has taught it as part of a number of different things. I learned it as part of a trapping and ground fighting curriculum. I had heard that Vu was coming out with a video tape covering just the biting, pinching and eye gouging and how to set it up. Send him an e-mail at his web site, http://www.fighting.net

As Chad said, with all the nice things floating around these days I would rather not put my mouth on someone I really don't even want to put my hands on.

[Chad W. Getz]

Originally posted by Paul Sharp

As Chad said, with all the nice things floating around these days I would rather not put my mouth on someone I really don't even want to put my hands on.

Hence a real evolution in the traditional fighting systems lay before us. Instead of throwing away this extremely sub-system, we should adapt and evolve...biting on clothes area, also for personal relation and instructional reasons, I define kino mutai including digging in your elbows, chin, knees, fingers, along with any types of biting, pinching, etc. If you don't practice it, it won't be to its fullest potential on the street. Like I stated, Paul had an excellent article in a mag out...forget which one, he may put the article on his site...Demi?

Sure biting is effective, but so is pushing a door open from the hinge side of the door. But efficiency says we push it on the door knob side. From Paul's article, he makes a point, that if you can hold your face against an attackers body for 15 seconds, you can consider that you could have got in an efficient and effective bite...not in those words exactly, but that was my interpretation...James knows, that I have always trained my biting...by biting him using gnawing motions because I don't want someone to bleed into my mouth, and I like my prey butterfly cut, medium-well.

[Dion]

Putting my mouth on an opponent let alone biting him... nah Ill be right thanks, my blood is sweet enough for me heh, but, even if the "situation" were to arise where you [think] it needs to be used then I would say that there will be a better more effective way of overcoming it than using your teeth and risking alsorts of new games to arise.

Remember if you are going to [bite] then expect to be [bitten] and usually that means hard, be it a real bite or some result of the bite eg teeth being ripped out. Your teeth were designed to eat with and have no real fighting ability unless you wish to [eat] some part of someone during the process and that means take a serious chunk out of some area to cause immobility... is this how far you would take it ?

And as to a controlled [nip] or [gnaw] I also find (sorry) they are completely ineffective as to hold your *face* that close to someone for a period of time without sustaining damage to the face during the [bite] would be highly unlikely.

From some personal experiences I can say that bites I have sustained have not done anything more than cause me to go harder and try to stop the opponent quicker and to do this I take the fastest path... give them back the pain 10 fold to say back off, which I have had to do very seriously once with a real dog that latched onto me and started to go off trying to literally rip my arm off or take all of me back into the bush, I grabbed its throat and held on just as hard as it was holding onto me so we became locked together and it couldnt pull nor I could pull until we were pulled apart by some friends removing the dog from my arm... I was 8 years old and scared shitless hehe but I am still here and not disfigured... so really how effective is the bite ? ... I agree you could say I was lucky but looking back on the situation I can still see the wild look in the dogs eyes and the feeling I was getting from it as to say "your my dinner" ... @#$% that! Oh and my arm came out of it with only 2 sets of puncture marks but no tearing occured thanks to my reaction but bled quite a bit until bandaged. The [human] bites since that I have sustained well all I can say is they didnt have enough teeth

A long example again hehe but I think it again should get the truths out about the useage of a bite for combat taken from ones own "preservation of life"...

Freedom Ultimate... !



*...I prefer to keep my 'mouth' [shut] in [combat], if 'I' have 'something' to [say] then my [body] will [speak] and my [voice] will be [heard]...*

**...like an echo in the mirror on the pond in the garden...**

PS: Again I do not mean to be rude if thats on anyones mind, just envoking some serious thoughts again

[Dion]

Now the "stylings" of Kuni Mutai and its "ideals" I agree whole heartedly, there are different methods to get the message across where the dog situation taken again where it latched on and I in return latched on with a tight pinch like grip so to hold on and return pain now I think back is the logical reason for my doing it (beside survival of course). The digging in of vaious bits and the gouging have a good foundation behind them but again the context of doing a lot of it in the first place, even the smallest of gouges or bites can cause some serious recourse on yourself if you have initiated the bite/gouge.

I can only think of a very few situations that I would find myself able and willing to use such extreme measures in a combat and those I do not wish to express due to the rather horrific nature but yes I agree again that they have effectiveness but to go that far to hurt someone is not really what jeet kune do is about, there is a measure of compassion in it that says yes go full on but it also says that [life] holds the truest value and to take serious steps to remove a [life] is to take serious steps in removing your own [life]... and to get down and dirty like that means you truely disregard any value in yourself.

Freedom Ultimate... !



PS: Paul, yah Ill check out the site...

[Kevin]

Hi Dion,

You wrote:
>>... so really how effective is the bite ?

Just a quick blurp on how much damage a human bite can do...

One of the guys I used to work with bought a bar.
One night he was trying to get a rowdy patron out of his establishment, and the guy started fighting with him on the sidewalk. This piece of human trash ended up biting off the majority of my fellow-worker's nose. I found out later that this A*hole had a history of doing this.

I'm not crazy about biting someone, but if that's what it took to get somebody off of me so I could come to the aid of a loved one.... then that's what I would do!

~Kev

[Dion]

Again I agree whole heartedly about having to do it when its needed...

But, when would you really have to use a bite like that to defend yourself or a loved one ?

If someone has initiated a bite on you like on the nose then why try to pull him off and cause tearing ?, why not jam a finger in his cheek between his back teeth and he will soon cease biting unless he wants to take a chunk out of himself or grab his ears and twist and pull them toward you at an incredible rate and do you not think he will let go real fast, another could be to not even let him get that close and just headbutt him as he brings his face in like in "bare knuckle boxing" where they learnt to use the hardest part of the skull to cause damage to the opponents attacking limb, so to could you use it to be his dentist.

If someone is that hungry for 'blood' then give it to them for themselves but in better ways that they will understand and remember as we were trained in the army for "guard duty"...

When you encounter a rowdy drunk who will not do as they are asked eg go to bed, then do not stand there and argue with them as this will usually just irritate them in their condition, just "smash them" and if need be eg when its a really big bloke then use a pole and drop them hard and fast then put them in the cells and let them think over what has happened for a while then charge them for causing a disturbance. I questioned the motives to this many times but after my seargent explained some situations he and others had been put into by drunk infantry soldiers and how their "killer instincts" come out causing more harm than good due to the alcohol overload eg one example a bunch of drunk soldiers used a bayonet on another and ended up putting him in hospital in serious condition for no reason, just because some mental state became dominant due to being drunk... Oh the guy who was damaged was not alone, he and a partner were patrolling and instead of difusing the situation fast, they decided to have one run back for help and the other tried to keep them calm... wrong move.

*...defuse a situation fast, do not stop and [think] about it...*

Freedom Ultimate... !



PS: Would you take someones nose off in self-defence of yourself or protection of another ?

[Chad W. Getz]

Read the article again today. It's in the recent Black Belt issue with Rickson Gracie on the cover. Maybe worth it just for that particular article. It's a good article, that explains Kinomutai though Paul's interpretation. I have my own interpretation of kinomutai and definition for sake of explaining and showing the principles.

[James Walker]

Reconsider

______________________________________
Originally posted by Chad Getz

...James knows, that I have always trained my biting...by biting him using gnawing motions because I don't want someone to bleed into my mouth,
______________________________________

Interesting thread here. Though I have to say, doing it in training is totally different then to do it in a real situation. Because Chad, you know as well as I do, that in a real situation, its all about killer instinct, life & death, and of course your emotions kicking in wildly. We're just friends and training partners that are not really trying to hurt each other. IMO If you want to do any one of those techinques in a street fight, you can. But you must think about securing the position first, making totally sure that the person on the other end of your mouth can't do the same back to you. I mean really think about killer instnct and life & death for a second.

Question: Would you really allow someone you don't even know, take a bit out of you and get away with it.
I think it would only make me even more pissed off then before.

Now, thats not to say that I wouldn't practice it. (And I think that this is where Chad makes his piont) Always remember "Killer Instinct with your LIFE in hand and his DEATH on your mind!!!

[Edited by James Walker on 02-09-2001 at 05:33 AM]

[Demi Barbito]

I'd bite the son of a gun first thing! It's not a last ditch effort at all.

[Chad W. Getz]

Re: Reconsider

Originally posted by James Walker


Question: Would you really allow someone you don't even know, take a bit out of you and get away with it.
I think it would only make me even more pissed off then before.

Remember Dad biting that guys neck in Germany?

Question: Would you really allow someone you don't even know, to get you in an arm bar?

Question: Would you really allow someone you don't even know, to take you down?

Question: Would you really allow someone you don't even know, to punch you?

Question: Would you really allow someone you don't even know, to kick you?

Question: Would you really allow someone you don't even know, to hit you with a stick?

Really, isn't the whole point of training not to allow your opponent the chance to do any of these things.

Originally posted by James Walker

Though I have to say, doing it in training is totally different then to do it in a real situation.

Of course, and you know how I feel about that. I train with realism in mind, and I never train any other way. and to say that the training is not real enough, is reason enough to question the point of ones total training anyway?

Yes, training and fighting are two different things. But to ask that would be like asking why train? Why not just fight?

Since you may not be training with that thought in mind tonight...tonight, expect me to bite.

Originally posted by James Walker

We're just friends and training partners that are not really trying to hurt each other.

True on the first part, but don't count on the last part... My goal is first not to get hurt, which I expect you to try to do to me. When stickfighting, I know you try to hit me as hard as you can, because you know if you don't, then I will try to hit you as hard as I can. You should bring that thought into every training apect, with stick or without.

Originally posted by James Walker

But you must think about securing the position first, making totally sure that the person on the other end of your mouth can't do the same back to you.

Wouldn't that be a given? Besides, instead of talking about what biting can and can't do, why bother arguing, I know certain pinching that will affect one person, while it won't affect another. So I won't "count" on my bite to take one out, just like I won't bet the farm that my punch or arm bar will take someone out. Instead, my opponent can count on me getting better position while biting, then raining punches down on him, then slapping an arm bar with a few heel kicks to the face while I roll off to grab the frying pan and further convince him that he doesn't want to fight. Or something to the likes of that.

Originally posted by Demi Barbito

I'd bite the son of a gun first thing! It's not a last ditch effort at all.

Amen to that...

I don't think of it as a last ditch effort either. Biting is just another part of the whole. Would I bite in a fight? Of course, if the opportunity presents itself. Would I take someone down? Sure, if I couldn't do what I wanted standing. Would I stand up from the ground with someone? Sure, if I had a better game up there. Would I dig my fingers into someones eye sockets? Sure, if the opportunity presented itself.

Do I go into any confrontation with these thoughts in mind? Not a damn chance.