BL, WJM, wikality, and truth by concensus

[fenwick99]

recently I and a couple of buddies have attempted to promote a traditionalist view of the BL/WJM encounter on a certain website that begins with a "W." All of the efforts have been reverted, because apparently the editor who "Jimmy the great" has anointed the world's leading authority on ALL THINGS BRUCE LEE is also a proponent of the contrarian view of the WJM fight, or at least a proponent of "balanced treatment."

So I guess it is up to the Seattle/Oakland obls's to either step up to the plate on this, or live with the fact that DRAGON: THE BRUCE LEE STORY and the contrarian view of the WJM fight (spreading like a rash all over the web) will become the official "wikiality" and therefore the reality by concensus, of the history of Bruce Lee.

As a professor, I can strike back by refusing to ever read "W" and by forbidding my students from using "W" as a citation for term papers.
But I am only one guy.

[Troll Virus]

A certain site you refer to beginning with 'w' is nothing to concern yourself with.
Try editing the blatant advertising blurb that it uses to describe a site known as B*llshido and see how long it takes before it reverts to what it was.

'W' has one rule for some, and not for others.
Hardly impartial.

'Wankopedia' is shite.

[fenwick99]

wing chun

as a wing chun guy, I would like to think that either Bruce or any of the other
top 100 wing chun fighters in the world of 1964 could have beaten a 24 y/o Iron Buddha guy, Wong Jak Man or anyone else in Iron Buddha. This is why I wish OBLSs would get a little more aggressive in opposing the internet/contrarian view of the fight. Or, perhaps one of BL's classmates in Hong Kong (or a student) would fight a public chinese boxing match, with a referee, against either WJM (if he is still in shape) or a WJM student.
If a wing chun guy beats WJM's top student in a public match, then this would give the lie to the contrarians. If not, well, a fight is a fight, and you never know who will win. I'm am just a little pissed off at hearing Bruce Lee in the role of Royce Gracie and WJM in the role of Matt Hughes.
Last post for me: Bruce, rest in peace, and thakns for being our inspiration.

[MMA Apostate]

I hope when people read the references that "W'' decided to pull from to make there article about WJM they will be able to see that it was written from a bias perspective. http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

Here are just a few things I noticed to be bias or wrongfully slanted to be fact:

1.) "For those who have difficulty believing that a quick if clumsy victory over a worthy opponent was sufficient reason for Lee to abandon a fighting style that had seen him through dozens of vicious street fights as a youth in Hong Kong, where his family had moved shortly after his birth in San Francisco, a more substantial reason for Lee to change styles can be found in the account of the fight given by Wong Jack Man."

-One thing that I know is that fights never look nice. Especially when there are no rules to abide by. Just because the fight wasn't an eloquent dance doesn't mean it was clumsy. I also find it funny that the author notes WJM as a "worthy opponent" and notes that if what Bruce did was true it was just a "quick if clumsy victory" That's not setting a bias tone or anything

2.) -The next four paragraphs go on about WJM stating how aggressive Bruce was in fighting. Which what I take from it means that Bruce was constantly on the offensive and WJM was always on the defensive. Even if it was a judged competition the fight would have gone to BL. Then WJM states that he had to pull his punches (so to speak) because he didn't want to kill BL like BL wanted to do to him.

3.) "That, says Wong, is why he failed to deliver a devastating right-hand blow on any of the three occasions he had Lee’s head locked under his left arm. Instead, he says, he released his opponent each time, only to have an even more enraged Bruce Lee press on with his furious attack. "He would never say he lost until you killed him," says Wong. And despite his concern with the legal consequences, Wong says that killing Lee is something he began to consider. "I remember thinking, ‘If he injures me, if he really hurts me, I’ll have to kill him."

-First off, I think Wong would be surprised to find that what he thought to be a death blow wouldn't work.(And don't give me that old ram his nose to his brain palm strike. An effective strike but doesn't equal iminent death) I also find it funny that WJM never states where that death blow would have been targeted. If WJM did have BL in a head lock three times and released him each time it says to me that A.) the headlock didn't stop/choke out BL like he thought/trained B.) WJM didn't know what to do after he put BL in a headlock and had to revert to his style that he was familiar with to continue fighting, or C.) Just kept making stupid mistakes.

4.) "But according to Wong, before that need arose, the fight had ended, due more to what Linda Lee described as Lee’s "unusually winded" condition than to a decisive blow by either opponent. "It had lasted," says Wong, "at least 20 minutes, maybe 25."

-I find it funny that WJM admits that BL was continuously aggressive and how he(WJM) was always on the defensive. Then states that BL just got tired and decided to stop fighting and WJM obviously agreed. Sounds like BL won to me! I also never knew that there had to be a "decisive blow" in order for someone to win a fight. Not even in Linda Lee's or BL's acount did they mention there was a "decisive blow." I also have to agree with LL and BL's acount of how long the fight lasted. A true NHB fight(w/o breaks) if not physically conditioned cannot last 20-25 min. That's the length of a UFC bout for the belt. I do beleive the whole event lasted that long though. Everyone showed, did there meet and greet, sat down, watched the fight, and got up and left. I can see that taking 20-25min. If you put into acount how aggressive both parties say BL was attacking and add that in with what we now know about human physiology when someone puts themselves into these conditions of full on fighting you'll come to conclusion when looking at the facts that BL's story of how long the fight lasted holds up. Not WJMs.

5.) "Chen describes the outcome of the battle as "a tie." He adds, however, that whereas an enraged Bruce Lee had charged Wong "like a mad bull," obviously intent upon doing him serious injury. Wong had displayed extraordinary restraint by never employing what were perhaps his most dangerous weapons - his devastating kicks."

-So let me get this straight. Bruce went at WJM uninhibited while WJM decided not to use kicks because he didn't want to hurt Bruce that badly. In an aggressive NHB fight? I personaly beleive that BL(since he was the aggressor) fought WJM in WC range of fighting which kept BL out of range for WJM to be able to deploy his kicks effectively.

6.) The next couple of paragraphs go on to say that WJM wasn't beaten that badly because he was able to return to work the next day. That makes sense if you look at LLC and BL's account of what happened.You can get knocked around and still go to work the next day. I think those who have sparred people who were better then them while training in sport MMA know what I'm talking about.

7.) The next several paragraphs go on to say that even though BL became a far more superior fighter then he was that day. WJM was still superior due to the fact that he filled himself with an enormous amount of Chi. However, Chi as how the author of the article states it to be does not exist in the human body. Don't get me wrong, I do beleive the power of mind over the body can be great and can do marvelous things. However, the fact is BL went on to become a very scientific fighter in all ranges. Coupled with being an extraordinary athlete. While WJM just stayed in the system he was familiar with. Never challenging the full on effectiveness of his style to other fighters, or crafted his fighting method to fit himself perfectly like BL did with his.

8.)Then the author goes on acusing that JKD is not Harmonic in nature because BL didn't follow the traditional ways of past MAs. I personally like the fact that BL dispelled the whole mysticism aspect of MAs and sought after what works and what doesn't. We as MA practitioners(expecially Self-Defense MA practitioners) are better for that.

9.)Next the author goes on trying to clean up WJM's and the Chinese Community's record as not being racist towards white people in not teaching them the full martial art. Once again I have to side with BL's acount due to my own personal experiences that I will not go into here. I do beleive that first generation people who came from China and various other countries in Asia to America came with a social structure of certain heirarchy classes that they were raised to respect and adhere to.
I don't want to have this thread go down a road it shouldn't. This is a forum about MAs nothing else.

Those are just a few of my gripes about this article and the obvious bias slant the author takes on writing such a piece. Like I said in the begining. I hope readers of this article are smart enough to know this.

[Juicefree]

Browsed the WJM website to follow up the contradictory nature of this fight and came across the following ;

A good defense is a strong offense. Be aggressive in attacking

- WJM

He fought defensively (referring to himself), explains Wong

- WJM

Seems like WJM can't really make his mind up how he fought ? First as Grand Master of his style he advocates aggression then in the next breath, in what is perhaps his most hard fought fight ever, he fought defensively !

Wong’s Northern Shaolin, for example, can be traced back to the great Shaolin Temple of more than a thousand years ago, which is considered the source of Chinese martial arts. While the Wing Chun practiced by Lee until his fight with Wong also had a long period of development and refinement, the style he put together after the fight was a chop suey of many and varied ingredients

Hmmm, a chop suey of martial arts. Seems like WJM has just described the development of MMA, the undeniably most effective current approach to competitive fighting. As WJM himself states he wasn't fighting a death match so if WJM was so much more advanced than Bruce why has his style stagnated and contributed little of significance to the Martial Arts World today ?

Not sure what the likes of WJM are hoping to gain from disparaging the BL estate however facts speak for themselves and the practical effectiveness of the style that BL developed is an undeniable witness as to the outcome of the fight.

[ryanwp941979]

re:

I agree. If Sifu Wong is so great, let his students enter UFC, Pride, or even a regional/local mma show and see how they do.