Reality

[NuffSpeed]

great discussion. On another note, I've trained with alot of people who just wanted to learn JKD because of Bruce Lee and his legacy, which is fine, because thats what they wanted and expected to begin with. But...If these people aren't motivated or exposed to learning other "concepts" or ways of training, they believe that what they know is the be all end all(depending again on what they are exposed to ie, their instructors). Just like there is alot of sub-par training techniques in any other art, I think to be honest with yourself as having a true JKD mentality, you have to realize that alot of "original" JKD is outdated, or has been surpassed by better training practices. Some of Wing Chun, in my opinion is an aspect of this. I personally think any knowledge is power, and against someone who does not train in combative arts, or isn't a natural fighter,,,, definatlely the wing chun man has an advantage. I also believe some of the energy drills do help with other "energy" containing systems like submission wrestling or BJJ, but maybe not in the aspect of how they are generally taught. I don't believe that it has a "competitive" edge over some other arts, wether it was "designed by females to take out bigger stronger opponents" or not. We are in an age of cross training, and some mixtures are proving better than others "in the ring" yes......Depending on the individual,,,yes. But some techniques prove themselves, and some dont.

[Troll Virus]

great discussion. On another note, I've trained with alot of people who just wanted to learn JKD because of Bruce Lee and his legacy, which is fine, because thats what they wanted and expected to begin with. But...If these people aren't motivated or exposed to learning other "concepts" or ways of training, they believe that what they know is the be all end all(depending again on what they are exposed to ie, their instructors). Just like there is alot of sub-par training techniques in any other art, I think to be honest with yourself as having a true JKD mentality, you have to realize that alot of "original" JKD is outdated, or has been surpassed by better training practices. Some of Wing Chun, in my opinion is an aspect of this. I personally think any knowledge is power, and against someone who does not train in combative arts, or isn't a natural fighter,,,, definatlely the wing chun man has an advantage. I also believe some of the energy drills do help with other "energy" containing systems like submission wrestling or BJJ, but maybe not in the aspect of how they are generally taught. I don't believe that it has a "competitive" edge over some other arts, wether it was "designed by females to take out bigger stronger opponents" or not. We are in an age of cross training, and some mixtures are proving better than others "in the ring" yes......Depending on the individual,,,yes. But some techniques prove themselves, and some dont.

Overall, I'd say your response is the most akin to my own opinion.
Where we part company perhaps, is in 'The Ring' having any relevance.
Good post.

[NuffSpeed]

my point about the ring was more along the lines of the relevance of change to training practices from my personal development. what I mean is, in the mainstream,the common belief is that "the ring" is the final proving ground for your training. (note the quotation marks around "in the ring" in my last post .) I was very aware of "self defense" and street fighting before I ever learned any type of system aside from boxing, and my personal experience is this: if you can't make it work in the ring or even light sparring after developing proper and applicable use of the technique, don't ever try and use it in the street. Like you are trying to point out in a few words, there are more variables in the street, or real combat than could ever be decided in a rule orientated sanctioned and scheduled event. Again, not the point I was trying to make. What I am saying is that some aspects of "original" JKD (as taught to me) can be useless and even harmfull...street or any other situation, I feel they are a waste of time, and other concepts or systems are much better time spent.

[Demi Barbito]

Mike,

After years of training both ways I've seen greater results in excluding the energy drills, or what I refer to as the fake stuff.

Wrestling does not teach you to look for elbows, so likewise, I don't train to wrestle. The difference is I have trained "with" wrestlers. There are more usefull "concepts" that come from wrestling than from hubud, if were are talking about surviving a brutal attack.

The "trend" mindset hasn't ever come into play. I think the pure MMA guys are wrong for excluding weapons. I think the weapons guys are wrong for excluding MMA. I think the gun guys are wrong for excluding counter knife, etc...

In my training it boils down to this:

High Probability/Functional Tactics
Equal Focus on offense and defense
Gross Motor Function
Total Integration
Mindset

I have not time or interest to do chi sao, hubud, box patterns etc.

But, my original post was about wether or not those who "have" done them and "do not do them anymore" have gained some usefull attributes from doing them. I say no. I say it's a very romantic notion but it's just psychological compensation for having spent so much time doing them.

Just my opinion.

[kuk sool won]

I can very much see where you are comming from. I (shockingly) train in Kuk Sool Won and that has, to be totally honest, some s*** in it. Then again it has some extremely effective stuff that you wouldn't find in mainstream Muay Thai, BJJ, boxing etc. I except i have to take the bad with the good. That said training in these unrealistic methods have given me a certain perceptive and should i say a keener eye on the probablity of other methods and techniques. From the training I can very quickly define what will work and what wont work and as Mike said i can develop these concepts and methods using these seemingly useless techniques. I can still grab some benifits from these outdated training ideas and use them to better the more effective and proven ones.

These come through when I train with people of other arts and sports and they definately help me. Although this may seem to all of you as a complete pile of mumbo jumbo I hope i have somehow been able to get my point across, wether you agree or not. Cheers.

[Tom Yum]

I can very much see where you are comming from. I (shockingly) train in Kuk Sool Won and that has, to be totally honest, some s*** in it. Then again it has some extremely effective stuff that you wouldn't find in mainstream Muay Thai, BJJ, boxing etc.

Check out Tukong Musool. The style is designed for combat - drawing from traditional korean and chinese arts.

[NuffSpeed]

still a great discussion, wish I was as eloquent as Mike!

[kuk sool won]

Check out Tukong Musool. The style is designed for combat - drawing from traditional korean and chinese arts.

I would love to do something like that - however I am happy training in KSW and im always going to have a connection with it, when i decide to crosstrain with another MA seriously its going to be either boxing, kickboxing or possibly Judo. Besides i very much doubt their is a Tukong Moosul within 100 miles of my town

[GQchris]

Just a few days ago I had a conversation with a friend. He has been training with me off and on for several years. He has seen my material change and develop over the years and he has put in the time to develop this material and make it work. The conversation vectored around the use of some older material. He had this romantic notion about the contribution that things like dead pattern stick drills, Wing Chun/Kali energy drills and footwork box patterns had on his “overall” development. He thought he was better for training them, even though they have since been discarded. I completely disagreed. I told him that I thought it was wasted time. The only contribution to his game made by those things is a broader understanding of martial arts in general. That might make interesting dinner conversation but it won’t help you when someone twice your size is trying to destroy you.

Some individuals (like myself) spent a lot of time perfecting a number of different martial arts techniques throughout the late eighties and into the nineties. An interesting thing happened in the early nineties though that changed everything. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu showed us that training against a resisting opponent could actually functionalize techniques to the point where they work even though your opponent doesn’t want them to. Boxing was much the same and predated BJJ in the US but the martial arts community seemed to like the mystic over the obvious. Energy drills and box patterns can make an instructor look omnipotent but they don’t help the student from a self defense standpoint. That alone makes them a waste of time if your interest is in “self defense”.

I came to see that boxing, BJJ and clinch (Greco, Thai, wrestling) nullify Wing Chun. Karate, Tai Chi and Kali. I was willing to throw away what I saw didn’t do the job even though I had invested a lot of time and “energy” into it. This is one of those confusing things about Bruce Lee. After he discovered western boxing he was blown away. He knew that it had an edge over Wing Chun in training and application. He knew he could beat Wing Chun men with it. Yet he still trained and taught Wing Chun. I can only conclude that it was due to an emotional attachment he had formed, or his ego, which could not let it go. I look at some of the old material that I was taught as a disease. I not only want to be rid of it personally, I also want to see it eradicated from my general surroundings.

Some have used the argument that it is good to have structures like energy drills so you can still train when you are an aged senior citizen. That statement alone should show you how useless these types of structures are. However the point needs to be made that I probably will not want to train when I am in my golden years. I started training martial arts out of a sense of insecurity. I wasn’t sure how to handle myself in a violent confrontation. I was young and I thought there would be some overall life changing value to training. The only thing that came out of it was learning how to fight. It was not the stairway to heaven. It wasn’t even a spiritual stepladder. Later I became enamored by the arts I trained and learned to appreciate them. That was my sophisticated stage. Once I was responsible for the well being of a family I came to a real understanding of what I needed to do:

*Learn and train high probability tactics (which will mostly be gross motor function) in order to protect your family while you are young and strong enough to make any of it work.
*Forget about the sophisticated elements that rob time away from the functional elements. *Train with weapons and firearms.
*Try to keep yourself in decent shape along the way.
*Do not be swayed by propaganda, marketing or the politics of any organization.

So, as I continued to talk with my friend I gave him example after example of how his thinking, in my opinion, was flawed. The thrust of the examples I gave him was that if you trained “that way” and had to fight for real how well would you do. He concluded that he would not do so well. He still wanted to say that it had somehow contributed to his “development as a whole” but he was finding it harder and harder to make that argument. He did agree with my assessment when all was said and done.

I guess it can be best summed up like this:

“Even if you don’t see the light, you’re still gonna feel the heat”.

It makes sense to train for reality when you realize what’s at stake. And I’m not talking about money or your pride. I’m talking about your own well being and the well being of your family, friends or the innocent.

Good post, but I think that implementing different styles with a frame of mind to incorporate into a real life situation would be good. Let's say training in Boxing, Krav Maga, JKD, Muay Thai...

[Tom Yum]

Amen!

Keep the hotties coming!!

[aseepish]

Seconded! Uh, I mean, thirded!!