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  • Reality

    Just a few days ago I had a conversation with a friend. He has been training with me off and on for several years. He has seen my material change and develop over the years and he has put in the time to develop this material and make it work. The conversation vectored around the use of some older material. He had this romantic notion about the contribution that things like dead pattern stick drills, Wing Chun/Kali energy drills and footwork box patterns had on his “overall” development. He thought he was better for training them, even though they have since been discarded. I completely disagreed. I told him that I thought it was wasted time. The only contribution to his game made by those things is a broader understanding of martial arts in general. That might make interesting dinner conversation but it won’t help you when someone twice your size is trying to destroy you.

    Some individuals (like myself) spent a lot of time perfecting a number of different martial arts techniques throughout the late eighties and into the nineties. An interesting thing happened in the early nineties though that changed everything. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu showed us that training against a resisting opponent could actually functionalize techniques to the point where they work even though your opponent doesn’t want them to. Boxing was much the same and predated BJJ in the US but the martial arts community seemed to like the mystic over the obvious. Energy drills and box patterns can make an instructor look omnipotent but they don’t help the student from a self defense standpoint. That alone makes them a waste of time if your interest is in “self defense”.

    I came to see that boxing, BJJ and clinch (Greco, Thai, wrestling) nullify Wing Chun. Karate, Tai Chi and Kali. I was willing to throw away what I saw didn’t do the job even though I had invested a lot of time and “energy” into it. This is one of those confusing things about Bruce Lee. After he discovered western boxing he was blown away. He knew that it had an edge over Wing Chun in training and application. He knew he could beat Wing Chun men with it. Yet he still trained and taught Wing Chun. I can only conclude that it was due to an emotional attachment he had formed, or his ego, which could not let it go. I look at some of the old material that I was taught as a disease. I not only want to be rid of it personally, I also want to see it eradicated from my general surroundings.

    Some have used the argument that it is good to have structures like energy drills so you can still train when you are an aged senior citizen. That statement alone should show you how useless these types of structures are. However the point needs to be made that I probably will not want to train when I am in my golden years. I started training martial arts out of a sense of insecurity. I wasn’t sure how to handle myself in a violent confrontation. I was young and I thought there would be some overall life changing value to training. The only thing that came out of it was learning how to fight. It was not the stairway to heaven. It wasn’t even a spiritual stepladder. Later I became enamored by the arts I trained and learned to appreciate them. That was my sophisticated stage. Once I was responsible for the well being of a family I came to a real understanding of what I needed to do:

    *Learn and train high probability tactics (which will mostly be gross motor function) in order to protect your family while you are young and strong enough to make any of it work.
    *Forget about the sophisticated elements that rob time away from the functional elements. *Train with weapons and firearms.
    *Try to keep yourself in decent shape along the way.
    *Do not be swayed by propaganda, marketing or the politics of any organization.

    So, as I continued to talk with my friend I gave him example after example of how his thinking, in my opinion, was flawed. The thrust of the examples I gave him was that if you trained “that way” and had to fight for real how well would you do. He concluded that he would not do so well. He still wanted to say that it had somehow contributed to his “development as a whole” but he was finding it harder and harder to make that argument. He did agree with my assessment when all was said and done.

    I guess it can be best summed up like this:

    “Even if you don’t see the light, you’re still gonna feel the heat”.

    It makes sense to train for reality when you realize what’s at stake. And I’m not talking about money or your pride. I’m talking about your own well being and the well being of your family, friends or the innocent.

  • #2
    Great post.

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    • #3
      **opens door--see's a dead horse--kicks it,again and again---closes door**

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      • #4
        Excellent post Demi.

        Spot on.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by kooky View Post
          **opens door--see's a dead horse--kicks it,again and again---closes door**

          The horse is not yet dead. Just ask the patta-cake millions of tippy tappy trapping types!

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          • #6
            """**opens door--see's a dead horse--kicks it,again and again---closes door**"""

            The idea behind my post was that my friend thought that all his XYZ training had contributed to where he is now. Not that he still does it. I say it was only harmfull and thats why he has been training differently for years.

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            • #7
              Very good post. I do think it depends on what your goals are too. My goals in Martial arts have always been, Self Defense first, Health, then personal development. My goal is a marathon rather than a sprint I guess you'd say. I'd like to train for the rest of my life. The other thing that we must keep in mind is that while BJJ, MT, etc., are great arts, they do have sporting rules. To truly train them for self defense we have to discard the rules, then think about what we could do to our opponent without them, and more importently, what our opponent could do to us without them.

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              • #8
                Good post, while I recognize what you are feeling, I don't completely agree with it.
                One: Different people train for different reasons. You and I both agree that "self-defense" is the paramount concern (else it wouldn't be "martial" art now would it?); but for some that's not it. It could be a sport, a hobby, a way of life. Just because you and I do not agree with their focus does not make it bad. Notice I did NOT mention effectiveness as a fighter...That's another story entirely and I agree with you as to what an effective fighter needs.
                Two: Bruce stuck with Wing Chun, that's what was useful for him. Who knows? Maybe he would have been whupped in the UFC (he would have since he would have been the oldest competitor ), maybe he would have gotten beat by Rolls if Bruce had been in Rio... who cares? The point is that you still have to absorb what is useful and reject what is useless while adding what is specifically your own.
                As long as you obey sound principles (like not using fancy moves in a fight), have properly developed attributes (you HAVE to be in shape) I believe a fighter can make his art (any art) work. Success is in the method. Sparring in any art is what makes the difference.
                I presume you are a JKD practitioner. As such, one would expect an open mind in terms of what works and what doesn't. Make what you know ALIVE instead of dissing what you once practiced.
                By way of example, I started after you did around 1991. Started MT and Kali, at the time I did not have the experience or attributes to make JKD/Jun Fan work. When I left home a couple of years afterward, I sought exposure to as many different arts as possible: hung ga, aikido, capoeira, boxing, etc. Obviously no expertise can be claimed, I just wanted to find what felt right, what art can fit with my attributes and help me grow? I was then exposed to BJJ around 1995, I had first seen the old In Action tapes in 1993 and my old JKD teacher had dissed them, saying it looked ugly. But then I saw the guys doing that ugly shit WINNING. It wasn't until several takedowns and using BJJ techniques to last against judo guys that I was convinced.
                Fast forward. After having earned a blue belt in BJJ I was convinced that grappling/submission was THE paradigm. Hey, after all, I had tapped out guys who my punches could not do anything against, so grappling was the solution.
                Well, I found out that as I was developing in that art, my close friends had been developing in THEIR arts and the results surprised me...
                I found that BJJ, wrestling meant FUCKALL when the guy has a knife, that experience gave me a new perspective on Kali.
                Wing Chun, if applied at the right time and by the person with the right attributes could neutralize my shoot and my boxing counters.
                I am not saying that one art is better than the other, but just trying to underscore how important it is to keep an open and critical mind and not get boxed into that "this is right, so that over there is shit" mentality that blew up after the UFC got rolling. True, unless we get tapes of actual felonies, the UFC is (was?) the closest we'll get to a streetfight (even though there are hundreds of variables absent). But just don't start thinking that it is "IT" or the reality. Hey, if all real fights are like the UFC (in a ring, no weapons, no cops, no multiple foes, no weather conditions to worry about, you being in perfect shape, etc, etc,) then that BJJ/MT/ Wrestling/Boxing combo so popular nowadays will suit you just fine. I am not dissing it, again, just don't become fixated on it. Hey, Shonie KTFO a badass BJJ guy with a karate technique, didn't he?

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                • #9
                  After the last post, I checked out your website. I stand corrected. All the time I thought that you were writing as one of these guys who once took up grappling started dissing everything else he previously did and became a UFC clone. Good stuff.

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                  • #10
                    Ive had the conversation a few times about the effectiveness of this or that martial art.

                    Round and round it goes and, when you get them almost to the point of admitting that it isn't that effective after all they say "Yeah! But I do it for self development."

                    My point would be this. If you want self development, you can also gain that in an effective art!

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                    • #11
                      The truth is that when Bruce created JKD by adding boxing and Western fencing theories, he changed the structure of his art. Very little of the wing chun works using the JKD structure. We feel it's best to stick with one structure.

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                      • #12
                        i am gona contradict everyone and say that post was sh*t...

                        "I look at some of the old material that I was taught as a disease. I not only want to be rid of it personally, I also want to see it eradicated from my general surroundings."

                        bruce lee also said rejection as a reaction leaves you "trapped" again, just in a different one

                        win chun wastes time?? what good does it do when someone twice size your size is trying to detroy you... well considering the art was design by a female to overcome bigger stronger men ....

                        so many things but tbh a cant really be bothered writing them out i will be hear all day!!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by thtackett View Post
                          The truth is that when Bruce created JKD by adding boxing and Western fencing theories, he changed the structure of his art. Very little of the wing chun works using the JKD structure. We feel it's best to stick with one structure.

                          his art constantly "changed" and evolved (evolution)... just like him, just like everyone and everything in this world at every second... to stop evolving is to be dead... to stop evolving his "art" was to kill it, to stop advancing himself, which as he said was why he critisced "traditional MA"... and it would be no different to any other

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                          • #14
                            I do not think that your friend wasted his time training the "old stuff". After all he is the one who said that he felt like the "old stuff" had gotten him to the place he was at in his martial arts journey. He is the only one who can make that determination. You may not agree with it but that does not mean he is wrong. Different things work for different people, thats just the way it is. As an instructor you have to point the way not dictate which way the student goes. I know as an instructor it can be frustrating sometimes and makes you want to scream. As far as the energy drills go I think the biggest problem people have with them comes fromthe way they train them instead of the drills themselves. I know when I first started training energy drills my instructor would have us stand still with feet shoulder width apart and we would do them until I thought my shoulders were going to catch on fire and I hated it. Then after training with another instructor he had us do some of the same drills but he made them "live" drills by having us moving around using different footwork and giving resistance and it opened my eyes as to how to train them. I think energy drills are great for beginners because it teaches them sensitivity early on. The footwork drills are good also if you make them "live" and use them with boxing/kickboxing. It teaches you how to maintain proper distance. I agree with alot of what you said though especially about the main concern being self-defense. You have to train with reality in mind if you want to improve.

                            Dumog which is a Filipino Grappling art is very effective in the tie up/clinch and has some good takedowns and submissions.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wado_kai View Post
                              well considering the art was design by a female to overcome bigger stronger men ....

                              !
                              Here we go........

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