Has anyone trained with Vunak lately?

[Aaron04]

Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone has trained with him lately. I'm especially interested in his ground game, specifically, methods he may use to help quickly develop attributes on the ground.


Thanks

[Aaron04]

Thanks Mike. I always appreciate your observations, especially when they relate to your experiences with Vunak. I rolled with him a few years ago and was very impressed, although I had nowhere near the skill then that I have now (and I still suck, lol). When I think about it now, he seems even more impressive (on the ground and standing as well).

Have you considered posting a thread relating to your many experiences with him? That would be a very interesting post.

Thanks

[Aaron04]

Thanks for your reply. When I asked about your experiences with him, I didn't mean about things relating to his personal life. I meant about things related to his training, strategy, and philosophy when it comes to fighting. You have described your experiences in that regard in posts here before. In my brief times training with him, I've seen both his incredible abilities and some of the things relating to his personal life that I would not post on a public forum, as it would be disrespectful and a betrayal of trust.

Simply discussing training methods, sparring experiences, and other things strictly related to the subject at hand is in no way disrespectful, nor does it give any fodder to the critics.

I (and others here as well) am only interested in those subjects which relate to his martial abilities.

Thanks

[Aaron04]

Thanks Mike. I remember a post you made once about sparring in long range with him. You described how he was able to predict everything you threw at him, before you threw it. You also spoke of him potshotting in a manner so as to get you thinking along that line of attack, so that he could set up a belivable fake shot, leaving you wide open for a real shot.

Could you please elaborate?

Thanks

[Aaron04]

That was an awesome post. I really appreciate it. I've been working a lot on long range sparring, with emphasis on intercepting and destroying. I like what you said about intercepting as soon as he moves in close enough to attack. That's what I've been doing, with good results. I notice that sometimes my interceptions get intercepted when I press the action and hit the person before he steps forward. I think from now on I will experiment with only intercepting when the opponent steps forward.

When I intercept, I almost always use the eye jab (or regular jab), shuffle kick to the groin, and thigh kick. I always shuffle in with the jab and groin kick. I've noticed that the shuffle is critical, because it allows you to hit from a range where the average person still feels out of range from incoming blows. In other words, they still feel "safe" in a range outside of the flat footed jab. To me, that seems to be the biggest key in landing an effective interception.

Here is another question for you if you wouldn't mind answering- Are there any particular methods he uses to develop a good thigh kick? Of everything I've done with him, the most freakish thing he did to me was throw a fake thigh kick at me. At the time I felt I would have instantly lost the fight due to that alone. Even if I had remained standing after the kick, I felt totally psychologically defeated by it. It was hands down the most devastating thigh kick I've seen or felt.

Thanks

[Aaron04]

Another great post, thanks. I will experiment with that in my next training session on the bag.

When you spoke of sectoring for long range sparring/fighting, is there a certain order or set of steps he likes to use? In other words, does he like to start in matching leads, with his movement outside the rear hand or lead hand? It seems as though it would be best to test your opponent's lead hand shots before his rear hand shots. I would imagine he would test both sides, then start setting up a destruction on the side that he feels he has the best chance of pulling off depending on what his opponent does. Does he (or you) advocate fighting in matched leads or opposite leads? I prefer matched leads because it makes my shuffle kick interception easier. Lastly, what does he recommend for an opponent who continuously switches leads, and does he recommend also doing the same?

Thanks

[Aaron04]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks. Is there a certain sector that you like to begin the preliminary analysis in? Going by what you described, it seems as though it would be safest and most effecient to begin in sectors 1 and 5, then drift inward to allow him to throw something so you can gauge it. Would that be correct? It also seems that avoiding a takedown would also easiest in sectors 1 and 5.

Would you be willing to make a list of various techniques, such as jab, cross, hook, double leg takedown, etc., and the corresponding sectors that are most conducive to avoiding them? I think I've gotten them figured out, but your advice is always appreciated.

Thanks again for another great post.

[Tom Yum]

Nice posts, Mike!

Your experiences with Vu sound very valuable.

[Aaron04]

Great post Mike, thank you. I will definetly be trying out this sectoring concept the next time I spar.

My last 2 questions regarding sectoring are these- Do you like to put yourself through some or all of the different sectors during your preliminary analysis/potshotting stage, to see how and what type of shots he throws from there (while obviously maintaining long range) to set up your interceptions and destructions accordingly? Also, my favorite interceptions are the jab/eye jab, thigh kick and shuffle kick to the groin. For the thigh kick, I gather that sector 4 is best, for the shuffle kick to the groin (lead leg hits groin), sectors 2 or 3, and the jab/eye jab seems to be sector 3 as well. You mentioned sector 5 for the jab, but only going around or behind his rear hand. What would be the best sector for the jab if his hands are too low, and you simply want to go over the top of them? When I spar, I am in a RAT mindset as opposed to a boxing/kickboxing mindset.

Thanks

[Aaron04]

Thanks for your reply. I should have been more upfront about stating that my long range sparring revolves strictly around RAT. I'm well aware of the fact that in many or most altercations, there will not be enough room to move around, potshot, and analyze the situation in a relaxed manner, due to the lack of room. In those situations, as you know, it's not necessary because you can simply go directly into the second or third phase of RAT.

I was mainly concerned with the first phase, and the related sparring/kickboxing that applies to it. In a situation where you are in a parking lot (or in class), and the opponent is using footwork of his own, making if difficult to simply reach out and grab his neck, or to hit him. At this point, I move around, potshot, and look for an interception or destruction. When I intercept, I basically only use 3 weapons, the jab, thigh kick and shuffle kick. I also make a point of staying in extra long range, because the majority of the people I spar with are grapplers, and so they are usually looking for takedowns.

So in this scenario, how would you use sectoring?

Thanks

[Aaron04]

P.S.
When I spar this way, of course I'm not actually jabbing someone in the eye, blasting them with a thigh kick, or slamming my foot into their groin. As a result, the amount of time I spend in phase one is dramatically longer than it would be in a real streetfight. In many sparring matches, I've literally intercepted/destroyed dozens of times before the distance closes. In most sessions, I'm usually able to simply shuffle in and hit immediately, before my partner has time to think. So in a streetfight, that would pretty much be the end of phase one.

I like isolating the first phase (long range), because I think that's the most difficult and dangerous phase of the fight. So in this sparring/streetfighting scenario is where sectoring would be used, as opposed to a boxing/kickboxing match.

Sorry to make you describe the majority of your sectoring principles for sport as opposed to street, although I'm sure others have found them very helpful. So again "street sectoring".

Thanks again

[Aaron04]

Yes it does, thanks. Just one last question about sectoring, what if your opponent continuously changes leads? I like to continuously change leads because most people seem to get pretty thrown off by it. Should I just consider the same position that we are in a different sector, due to the different leads? I'm guessing that that's what I should do.

One other thing, I've narrowed my interceptions/strikes to only 3 tools, the eye jab, thigh kick and shuffle kick. Which are your preffered sectors for throwing those 3 attacks?

Thanks

[Aaron04]

Thank you for another great reply. I pretty much figured out the sectors for throwing the interceptions, as well as what to do when someone switches leads, but it always helps to have those things confirmed by an authority on the subject. Thanks. I totally agree when you say that JKD is about experimentation and refinement. I'm really seeing that now.

If you are still inclined, could we switch gears and talk about the ground? Are there any insights that you learned from Paul, or developed on your own, that are similar to what you have posted about long range sparring? Not so much techniques, but concepts and philosophies. Are there sectors on the ground as well? You mentioned that he likes to attack by drawing. Does he have any particular methods to ABD on the ground as well? I'm really looking to make my ground game more JKD.

Thanks again.

[Aaron04]

Thanks for your reply. I definetly put too much emphasis on not losing as opposed to winning. I know that part of that is because of my street mentality. In a real fight I would definetly consider using Kino Mutai to get back up. I often get into a position, either an offensive or defensive one, and target the area that I would bite. Once I'm able to do that, I tend to relax, and not press the action as much as I should. One problem is that I'm very comfortable in someone's guard, because I can "cheat" my way out in a streetfight very quickly. I will often lay there and make minimal movements, forcing the person to work harder to keep me there, and I will often just wait for him to get tired. I tend to do this in most positions. Even when a person takes my back, I have a good choke defense, so I will often just fend off the choke and not be very aggressive about escaping. The majority of the time someone takes my back, they tend to get tired before I do, which eventually allows me to escape.

You mentioned how you like to create a fake opening for something, then when they go for it, you use their movement to do something (escape, submission, etc.) Do you have certain things you like to bait people with to escape from positons? For example, I notice that when I am mounted, and my opponent goes for a straight armbar, if I don't get caught with it, I'm pretty much out of the mount, without having to work for it. So in regards to escaping or reversing bad positions, do you have a preffered way of baiting?

Thanks

[aseepish]

My PFS instructor had us do some neat stuff on the ground. As we were rolling, we got so focused on that activity that we became blind to our surroundings. He would randomly toss a training knife or kali stick onto the mat (sometimes nobody noticed it (!!)). If we noticed it, one person would grab for it, and it was up to the other person to escape (escape being defined in this exercise as getting out of the mat area. Or if we were stupid, we could try to grapple for the knife.

The other great drill is the one where you have to change ranges/phases on command. Start at long range, then clinch, or go into hubud/lubud, or go to the ground, then back up, etc.

To me the problem with baiting someone to go for an armbar in order to escape their mount is that you might run into a guy with a very good armbar. Or they might anticipate your bait and use your escape attempt to get you with something else. In the words of my BJJ instructor (I think he attributed the quote to Rickson) "perfect technique in offence will beat perfect technique in defence."

That said, baiting works, especially if you're not obvious about it.