Has anyone trained with Vunak lately?

[Aaron04]

That's very true. As far as that goes though, I don't know very much about it. When you speak of training close range weapons training, what exactly do you mean? Is that what Sumbrada, Numbrada, and Carrenza (sp) are for? The de-fanging sparring is definitely good for long range training, but what is good for close range training?

Thanks

[Ryan C.]

Hey Mike, it's Ryan Clark out in Eugene, Oregon... I was just passin through on my yearly web surfing and saw that you were posting here.. Though I would registar myself to say what's up? Haven't heard from you in like 9 or 10 years. Shoot me an email some time I'd like to here what your up to these days... Take care
Ryan Clark
info@nwmaacademy.com

[Aaron04]

Hi Ryan. You probably don't remember me but when I trained with Vunak one time you were his assistant. We did quite a bit of training together in 2 days and it definitely rocked! I'm glad to hear you are doing well, and hope you post some stuff here.

[Aaron04]

So Mike, when you speak of knife training in close range, do you still recommend the defanging? Or is there something else involved as well? Almost all of my sparring involves one on one without weapons. I want to do more weapons sparring, especially the defanging, but time is an issue unfortunately. Most of the guys I spar with are BJJ guys, who like to force range on me, trying to get close for the takedown. I am usually quite successful in keeping them out in long range, using footwork, and I am usually able to intercept them with something before they get close enough to go for a takedown. When they do get close, I will usually go directly into the straight blast or grab their neck and go for HKE. Again because of the BJJ aspect, we almost never spar with the gear on, so I have to fake the blast and HKE, but I still do the best I can given the circumstances.

I remember Vu saying on one of his videos that if you are only able to do one weapons drill, it should be the defanging sparring. If I were to add one or two more drills, what would you recommend?

Thanks

[Aaron04]

Thanks for another nice post. Honestly, I'm pretty much satisfied with my weapons abilities as they are, at least for the time being. I'm halfway decent at defanging (although I haven't trained it anywhere near enough), and I was mostly interested in the knife and stick training as they relate to unarmed attributes development. As far as weapons goes, I think that simply knowing the defanging concept, and having trained it minimally, would put a person at a tremendous advantage over the vast majority of the world. Probably only a very small percentage of people in the world even know about it.

So to go back to the unarmed aspect of fighting, could you elaborate more on the thigh kick please? Especially as it relates to Vunak's method of using it. I've been working the snapping aspect of it like you spoke of earlier, and I've pretty much gotten that ingrained into my subconscious, as Vu would say.

Here's a couple more questions about it...When I said that the most freakish thing he did was use a thigh kick on me, I should have also mentioned that he did it from a totally static position. I was also not moving. We were talking about fighting, and as he was talking, he threw it at me. So we weren't sparring, we were just standing there talking. He was talking about how he liked to hit first, before the hands went up and the fight was on, and the thigh kick was one of the things he likes to use. It was totally stunning how effective it was, even though it didn't hurt because he didn't really hit me with it. While I totally agree with you about the snapping aspect of the kick, as it relates to the mechanics of the kick, do you know what he likes to do with his hands and arms while he throws it from a static position? I find that when I put my hands up, it seems to telegraph the kick somewhat. It also let's your opponent know that he might get hit, seeing as how your hands go up. It also seems to slow the kick down, at least if you keep your hands up to cover/destroy an incoming punch. When I leave my hands down, it seems faster and more stealthy, but it also leaves my face more vulnerable to a punch. I remember noting that when he threw it at me, I couldn't have even tried to throw a punch at him because it hit me before I had a chance to think. I also noticed that even if I did, he seemed to be 8 feet away from me, totally out of range, yet his leg easily hit mine. Do you know how he did that?

Thanks

[Aaron04]

Thanks Mike, that was good stuff. Basically the way he threw the kick was like a sucker punch. Only it was a sucker kick. I think he targeted the leg that I had most of my weight on, knowing that he could hit me before I could try to counter it. It's hard to describe how effective it would have been if he had actually popped me with it. I want to say that he had his hands down when he did it. It seemed to be a great way to deal with someone who was going to start a fight, to use a kick like that as a preemptive attack.

As far as using the thigh kick when in motion (sparring), I always keep my hands up of course. I tend to put them in the same position that I use the elbow destruction in, so that when I hit with it, should a punch come at me, hopefully it will hit my elbow instead of my face, although I'm quite good at staying outside the range of his fists when I throw it. So here's a question about using the thigh kick while in motion-Do you like to fake with something first? I've noticed that people are getting better and better about defending against thigh kicks. The best fake that I've found for it is to use a fake hook punch, using the same arm as the leg that will be throwing the kick. I will do that once or twice to get the person thinking about covering high when they see that type of body motion. Then when I begin moving to throw the kick, and I throw my hook, they will usually flinch high, leaving them wide open for the kick. This is the best method I've found for masking the thigh kick, although I'm not quite satisfied with it. Do you have any other fakes that you like to use?

Thanks

[Aaron04]

P.S.- While sparring, except for the need to better set it up, I'm pretty much pleased with my thigh kick. I feel I really need to work the "sucker" thigh kick more. Any insights on the static (ambush) thigh kick would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Aaron04]

Thanks. I know what you mean when you say Paul has almost inhumanly fast kicks. I have had that same type of kick thrown at me more times than I can remember during sparring, but it's totally different when you are in a stance, moving around, using footwork to keep a distance, waiting to blow it away with a knee destruction, and ready for it. The way he did it, I was totally unprepared for it, and it was shell shocking to get hit with it. Totally. I have tried to emulate it by throwing it at a static target with my hands both up and down, but I'm not quite satisfied with either. I'm leaning towards throwing it with the hands down, while making sure I stay outside the range of his hands, and timing it to where he doesn't have a chance to put his hands up to hit me in the first place. What are your thoughts on that?

As far as using an eye jab and following it up with a thigh kick in a streetfight, I've actually already done that. I didn't plan on doing that, but it worked out that way. Here's how it happened; I hit the guy with an eye jab, with the intention of going directly into the straight blast. The plan was to immediately close the distance so that I could go into HKE. Instead, as soon as I hit him with the eye jab, he went berserk, running around in circles and screaming hysterically. He couldn't even say any words, he just screamed and lost control of his body. He immediately was out of range and moving too erratically to use a straight blast on, so I waited until he slowed down enough to do something, and when he did, he was positioned perfectly for a thigh kick, so I took it. His hands were covering the eye that had been hit, and I could tell that the last thing on earth he was thinking about were his legs, so that's exactly what I hit. He was so badly incapacitated by the eye jab that I was able to load up with the thigh kick, and use my arm as a counter balance to maximize the power of the kick. I wasn't even worried about the positioning of my hands, as far as protecting myself from being hit, because I wasn't worried about getting hit, due to the fact that both of his hands were over his eye, as if my eye jab had popped his eye out of it's socket, and he was trying to put it back in. Of course that wasn't the case, but he seemed to think it was. The thigh kick pretty much ended the fight.

[g-bells]

mr brewer did you read paul vunak's article on osmossis in dec. inside kung fu mag.? what are your oppinions on it? any body else who wants to feedback please feel free to do so.

[Tom Yum]

As far as using an eye jab and following it up with a thigh kick in a streetfight, I've actually already done that. I didn't plan on doing that, but it worked out that way.

......

[PFSofPA]

Osmosis training. New package, old concept.

[Aaron04]

Thanks Mike.

Guys, I read Mike's reply to my post and I re-read my post as well. I think I got a little overly descriptive when I described the eye jab/thigh kick combo. I didn't mean to come across as a Billy-bad ass type with my description of what happened, and re-reading it, I think that's the way that it came across. I want everyone viewing to know that that wasn't my intent at all. While it wasn't exaggerated at all, I think I went a little far on that one.

Sorry about that, I didn't mean to come across as a Sammy Franco type.

[Aaron04]

By the way, this has been a great thread. Let's please not turn it into a Sammy "SEAL" Franco bashing thread.

Thanks

[Aaron04]

Mike, as far as what you said about making it work for you, I think that's very true, as far as there being no way that is set in stone. I've done a lot of experimenting with it and while I feel good both ways, I'm not totally satisfied with either, which is why I sought your advice on it. I'm always open to new things in that regard. I have a few good "go to" techniques, namely the eye jab, shuffle kick to the groin, thigh kick, and I have a pretty decent jab as well. I pretty much have all the bugs worked out of all of them for both sparring as well as a "hit him in the middle of his sentence" option from a static position. The only one that I'm not quite satisfied with is the thigh kick, from the static position. Both ways are pretty good from my experience, and I obviously don't see much difference as far as one being clearly better than the other, so I guess there really is no answer.

One thing I can say for sure is this-When Vu threw it at me, he described it as something that he likes to do in streetfights, often. He said that he used it often, so I've got to ask...Have you actually seen him use it? I know that that's a personal question, and I totally understand if you don't feel comfortable answering it, but if you are comfortable answering it, that would be awesome

Thanks

[brokenelbow]

Thanks. I know what you mean when you say Paul has almost inhumanly fast kicks. I have had that same type of kick thrown at me more times than I can remember during sparring, but it's totally different when you are in a stance, moving around, using footwork to keep a distance, waiting to blow it away with a knee destruction, and ready for it. The way he did it, I was totally unprepared for it, and it was shell shocking to get hit with it. Totally. I have tried to emulate it by throwing it at a static target with my hands both up and down, but I'm not quite satisfied with either. I'm leaning towards throwing it with the hands down, while making sure I stay outside the range of his hands, and timing it to where he doesn't have a chance to put his hands up to hit me in the first place. What are your thoughts on that?

As far as using an eye jab and following it up with a thigh kick in a streetfight, I've actually already done that. I didn't plan on doing that, but it worked out that way. Here's how it happened; I hit the guy with an eye jab, with the intention of going directly into the straight blast. The plan was to immediately close the distance so that I could go into HKE. Instead, as soon as I hit him with the eye jab, he went berserk, running around in circles and screaming hysterically. He couldn't even say any words, he just screamed and lost control of his body. He immediately was out of range and moving too erratically to use a straight blast on, so I waited until he slowed down enough to do something, and when he did, he was positioned perfectly for a thigh kick, so I took it. His hands were covering the eye that had been hit, and I could tell that the last thing on earth he was thinking about were his legs, so that's exactly what I hit. He was so badly incapacitated by the eye jab that I was able to load up with the thigh kick, and use my arm as a counter balance to maximize the power of the kick. I wasn't even worried about the positioning of my hands, as far as protecting myself from being hit, because I wasn't worried about getting hit, due to the fact that both of his hands were over his eye, as if my eye jab had popped his eye out of it's socket, and he was trying to put it back in. Of course that wasn't the case, but he seemed to think it was. The thigh kick pretty much ended the fight.

Just wondering why didn't you get away while he was incapacitated from the eye jab? If he couldn't defend himself and you waited around to hit him again you have moved from defending yourself to assault in some locales.