Enter the Dragon (good or bad?)

[Ryu (non-working password]

I enjoy all of Bruce's movies (well Game of death kind of excluded except the 15 min scenes that he's actually in )

I think my least favorite of his movies though is Enter the Dragon! Why? Well it's not a bad movie, but a lot of it kind of swims around in Hollywood stereotypes of what Chinese culture is about. From Han to the girls of the film. I'm not saying it's a bad movie at all, Bruce makes it more than worth it, but I guess if I had to choose which one I liked the least, it would have to be Enter the Dragon. Anyone else agree/disagree?
No real point to this, just curious.

Take care,
Ryu

[Korendir]

I'm not alone!

I have to agree with you Ryu. My favorite Bruce Lee movie is the Chinese Connection, my least favorite is Enter the Dragon, with the rest falling somewhere inbetween (excluding Game of Death). Naturally I own all of them, and they're all worth owning, but the other stories seem more authentic and Enter the Dragons plot is, IMHO, Hollywoods attempt at making Bruce Lee into a Kung Fu 007.

Think about it, he's hired by the British government to infiltrate an island where the maniacal Han is in complete control. How many Bond movies have a similar scenario? Well, IMO it's a forced outline for the movie. Much more entertaining is the story of an average guy trying to make his way in the world when he's forced into a situation that brings out his not so average fighting abilities.

I'm not particularily fond of the last fight scene either. I know a lot of martial arts enthusiasts hail Enter the Dragon as the greatest martial arts movie ever, but I just don't see it.

Maybe I'm missing something, maybe I'm seeing things others aren't. I wasn't too impressed with Titanic either, and that won Best Picture. Go figure.

Mike

[Chopstix]

i am also someone who does not understand why people claim enter the dragon is the best martial arts movie out, there and stuff like that. they analyze it to death and look for bruce lee "insights", and stuff lik that.. its a movie.
and its not really bruce's movie, its more of a john saxon movie, he was supposed to be the main star. hollywood just couldn't see an asian star pulling a movie all by himself..

[Bau13]

Cool thing about Enter the Dragon is that we got a glimpse of NHB in that fight scene between Bruce and Samo!

very cool...other than that...it was quite bad...

[Evilution]

I view most of his movies as equal because they all show him in movement and I think that's the most enjoyable part of his movies. Just watching the grace he displayed on film is great, and that's in all his movies.

[Maxximus]

I agree...

Enter the Dragon had the plot of a cheesy action movie (wanna be 007), but it was necessary to make it that way for the target audience at the time. However, Way of the Dragon and Chinese Connection were far superior. Both had better fight scenes IMO. Way of the Dragon had a kind of humor and wit to it. Chinese Connection was simply very inspiring for Chinese people. And in both films, the character Bruce plays comes to life and has a lot more charisma than his somewhat dull and silent philosophical superhero character in ETD does. Game of Death obviously shouldn't even be considered along the same lines as a 100% Bruce film, but the fight scenes Bruce actually did for that movie were I think perhaps the best he had ever done.

[Monkey]

Come on guys, Enter the Dragon still has the best one guy vs lots of punks scenes of all time, I think, and only some of Jackie Chans fight scenes against lots of dudes really come close! Like the parts in the courtyard and the part where Bruce goes to open the door, then turns around and takes on dudes from all angles with his hands... I mean it was very polished and sometimes he would spend like 12 hours just filming ONE of those 10 second clips with all those extras. And Bruce vs Bob was very good and gave a picture of the way he really moved, as opposed to the first two (BB and FOF), so were some of the other fights with some of the others. Yes it was a bit stereotyped because it was the movie Bruce was using to break into the world and so it was produced and directed by an american company. But it still destroyed many stereotypes about chinese in america and made him a superstar, meaning famous and loved across all races and cultures. It changed action movies forever.

But Way of the Dragon still has the best one on ones, I think. It had the most realism, I feel, along with Game of Death... Fist of Fury (Chinese Connection) is still good but its very comic book and it lacked the realism of WOTD, GOD and ETD in some ways. I mean in FOF he screams incessantly and he exaggerates all his movements and its very sensationalized he sort of does a lot of posing. He doesnt do that in ETD, he plays a cool part and mentally concentrated. Notice that WOTD and GOD are the only ones where there is no slow motion flying kicks to the main bad guy's face in mid air. I think they would have been the best. ETD, GOD and WOTD are also the best because there were real experts and champions in the movies and Bruce mixed it up with them and showed how much more skilled he was, especially Bob Wall who was the USA professional karate champion, and Chuck Norris. Its still miles ahead of anything Jean Claude or Jet Li made or will ever make, so stop whinging. Its a miracle the stereotypes and stuff wasnt 10 times worse when you consider that its like 30 years old!
If u look at other movies at that time... I mean all those old James Bond pieces of shit, u can see what a giant leap Enter the Dragon was. If u can show me a better martial arts movie made by anybody else, then u could say its not a good movie. But I dont think u can!

[Ryu (non-working password]

Hi Monkey,
I don't think anyone is arguing that Enter the Dragon did all the things you mentioned. It was a good movie that was ahead of it's time, and it did break the stereotype of the submissive Asian...(though possibly starting another haha ) However, it did little to quell the stereotypes of Asian women, and other things, and from an Asian perspective (mind you though, I'm not Asian, but have many close friends) Enter the Dragon is somewhat "funny" in some of the things the plot was trying to put forth. This does not mean it was horrible, and I agree that the fight scenes were among the best Bruce ever did! I don't think anyone will disagree there. Bruce carried the movie. Chop is right though, Saxon was kind of the "safeguard" of the movie just in case "Asian" Bruce couldn't pull it off by himself. We're not bad mouthing the movie at all! I like Enter the Dragon! I was just saying which of Bruce's movies I liked the least. My fav would probably have to be Way of the Dragon. Chinese connection was good too...but..LOL try getting some Japanese and Chinese friends over to watch that movie, and there can be lots of fun. hahaha

Ryu

[Chopstix]

i guess its a personal thing. i personally think the fights scenes in bruce's movies were alright, not great, not bad, but alright. i mean, they showcased his physical abilities very well, but they were just not choereographed very well,campared to other films. i personally like hong kong cinema, they've been choereographing good fight scenes since film came about, bruce didn't invent it, he just went along with it and showed it to american audiences, much like jackie chan does today. btw, fist of legend by jet li has got to have the best fight scenes in a martial arts movie i've ever seen..

[Ryu (non-working password]

Chopstix,
I have a question for you. I loved John Woo's HK cinema, especially things like The Killer, and (my all time favorite)Hard Boiled. His US films, I don't like. Am I crazy, or do you think his story lines were much more in depth in his movies from HK?

Ryu

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Ryu, COME BACK TO THE FORUM!!! I MISS YOU!!!!

[Ryu (non-working password]

LOL!
YeLLa, there's actually not that much going on there lately

[Monkey]

Oh, come off it, gimme a break.

I also thought Jet Li was the greatest when I was new to the martial arts and martial arts movies. But now I can just laugh at his fight scenes, Fist of Legend included! Bruce could have weaved all that bullshit, and thats what HK films did before him, but it lacked realism. He said the difference was that in his movies, when he punched, he really punched, whereas somebody like Jet Li or Jean Claude Van Damme never really puts anything into their moves, its just a fancy illusion that looks fantastic to people who wouldnt know what a powerful punch looks like. As far as speed is concerned, still nobody can touch Bruce Lee's fight scenes. Quickness? Sure. Rapidity of flashy techniques in a patterned and choreographed manner? Sure. It looks wonderful, as if it would be possible in reality. But raw speed (velocity) and real force and energy that you can really SEE, Bruce Lee still has the best martial arts movies and fight scenes, IMHO!!!!!

One time, Bruce Lee was interviewed by an american reporter, before he was famous in america and they asked him why his films were so popular in asia as compared to the other kung fu movies. He said it was because previously, eveybody thought that kung fu movies were unrealistic rubbish, which they were. Bruce shook up the genre and put realism and REAL fighting skill into it and thats why he was so popular. People could tell the difference between chop-socky flashy moves and moves that would really hurt somebody in real life and real timing and speed as opposed to quickness (how many flicky moves u can throw out in a second)!

So of course he didnt invent it but he blew all those rubbishy ones away and even today shows most of the martial arts movie stars to be nothing but ballarinas and dancers. The exception is Jackie Chan because Jackie risks his life and pulls of unbelievable stunts and his fight choreography is untouchable, and as opposed to Jet Li his scenes are filmed straight out and the actors are using powerful moves that would really hurt in real life and sometimes they do hurt eachother by accident, whereas Jet Li's fight scenes are mostly pathetic weak moves that lack any power and posing and levitating and rubbish, but look great if u dont know shit. Just fancy mess. For example Id like to see a jet li side kick on a heavy bag. I mean it looks wonderful while hes levitating and he spins around and kicks 12 people in the head and they all go flying off in a straight line (hanging on wires), but in reality his side kick wouldnt move the bag one inch. Bruce had been known to occasionally break a heavy bag in half with a side kick.

As for John Woo,... his scenes are just ridiculous and any of the people in his movies need serious marksmanship lessons because they never learnt how to fire a gun. Except for the star(s) who never miss even though in real life they have no shooting skills and it SHOWS. But they still kill 8 million enemies per second. Its just gratuitous rubbish and no better or worse than WWF and WCW. Just unskilled and meaningless violence for its own sake.

[Ryu (non-working password]

I've started thinking that for his US films actually...
The HK movies he made like Killer and Hard Boiled seemed to point that violence was disgusting, and horribly sad at the end. Even though it was extremely violent, I think that the ugly realization at the end drives a good point. I can't say that for the shoot em ups here....including Woo's...which I don't like.

I haven't seen many Jet Li films. He doesn't interest me. (gasp!) I agree that I'd like to see some double legs, and ground fighting in MA movies now a days

Ryu

[Chopstix]

ryu: i also think john woo's american movies are just pale imitation of his hk flix. just the superficial camera tricks without the story and relationships that drove his hk flix.
monkey: yes, i konw bruce was great and powerful, fast and such.. thats why im here.. but his movies were just ok movie.. jet li was a 5 time wushu champion, thats quite and athletic accomplishment, very, very hard training everyday, and its not like he had a choice for training either, since he was in china.. thats training for hours and hours everyday, through injuries and weather.. he has perfect form and is very fast. and i dont really care if he can fight or not in real life, he's an actor, if i want to see a fighter i watch kickboxing, or pride. if i want to see him kicking ass and taking names with a whip chain, i watch his movies. you complain about the realism of his fight scenes. well you obviously were watching one of his fantasy movies.. in chinese mythology, heroes could fly, catch bullets and all that stuff, and that's alright, because its all fantasy..
i don't know why you would complain about realism in a movie anyways, its a movie. just because wires are used in a lot of hk movies doesn't make them bad.. its just that hk movie goers have been watching that for like 50 years, just now its getting big in the states too. its just an accepted form of movie magic that people don't really care to nitpick about, just like in hollywood the lead actor can have a 5 shot pistol and kill 20 bad guys while they fire at him and shoot nothing but the wall behind him.. its fantasy