Enter the Dragon (good or bad?)

[DanInNeckaha]

martial arts flicks

In terms of the one vs many fight scenes Chan is definitely the best. The innovation, the moves, the precision are all increidible. They are very entertaining. I love how he makes maximum use of his environment. The very slim chance one would actually have against a gang of opponents would be to keep moving, using the environment and potential weapons on hand in your favor. Bruce standing in the middle of twenty guys that attack one at a time is cheesy. Bruce had the best one-on-one fight scenes no doubt. I don't dig this latest thing with the high wires too much. Hell DREW FREAKING BARRYMORE can look like a martial artist if you fly her around on a wire. Chan looks awesome without special effects.

As far as Woo goes I think he is good but has gotten way too repetitive. He just transferred the stuff he did in HK to American movies, he needs to expand.

[Monkey]

Totally agree about Jackie Chan. I think if Bruce Lee could see what he has done with action movies he would be happy what Jackie did with his films and even learn a thing or two. But its not better its just different. I mean look at it this way, Jackie doesnt claim to be the greatest fighter in the world and he doesnt play those roles. He uses his brains and his ingenuity in his fight scenes. Bruce Lee uses his raw fighting skills. Jet Li uses trampolines, poses, magical stances, wires and superficial classical kicks and punches that wouldnt hurt anybody. The first two do their scenes in the real world, the last one does it in fantasy world.

"perfect form"? "wushu champion"?
Thats just superficial posing classical rubbish. What is "perfect form"? Fighting isnt like that and if he tried any of that in a fight he would get caned. Do JC and BL have 'perfect form'? No, because there is no such thing, and they do whatever works, straight to the point. Did Jet Li have to fight anybody to get the championship? Of course not. Has he ever touched a heavy bag? Probably not. Thats why to a serious martial artists his scenes are silly stuff and dont even look believable and hence they are not at all impressive. His championships might as well have been for diving, or synchronized swimming, or gymnastics, which is closer to what wushu involves. Jackie Chan does everything in front of the camera in one take, without it cutting all over the place so that you dont actually see anything, while they put some chunky sound effect, like in Charlie's Angels which is pretty similar to Jet Li's fight scenes. Thats why Bruce was popular because he got rid of all that shit and Jackie went along with it and kept some realism but these days people dont care. At least when Jackie does a really cool thing with an object in a fight, he ACTUALLY DOES IT IN REAL LIFE AND ACTUALLY CONNECTS WITH THE PERSON, as opposed to Jet Li who does it in front of a blue screen and while the camera cuts all over the place and then a special effects crew makes it connect with the opponent(s). THis is especially obvious in movies like Romeo Must Die. Remember the scene with the hose? And the one in the alley with the fence? Its just trying to copy Jackie Chan's brilliance, but Jet Li just makes it silly and he sells out. Jackie Chan uses the environment if it serves his end. He doesnt use it gratuitously and just to show off which is what Jet Li tries to do. And if u know what to look for, he isnt really fast either. Just quick.
And who said I was talking about the old ones? Sure there is a lot of bullshit in Fong Sai Yuk and Once Upon a Time in China and stuff like that, but its still there in Black Mask, Tai Chi Master, and his other modern ones. Its just sad. And my point is to an experienced martial artist IT DOESNT EVEN LOOK GOOD! ITS JUST ANNOYING! Its like Britney Spears. Sure it sounds great to a 12 year old girl but to somebody who listens to a lot of music and takes it seriously..... its just silly and superficial there is no substance to it.

[Bau13]

HEY!!!!
dont be bashing Britney!!!
Shes a babe so it doesn't matter that she cant sing!

[Chopstix]

Monkey: are you listening to what i'm saying? who gives a fuk if the fight in a movie looks real or not? it just looks damn clumsy iif it looked real, because that's what real fights are like.. jakcie chan does things all in one take.. ha. who's acting like a 12 year old now? he does take after take after take. some of his fight scenes take up to 4 months to perfect, like the one in drunken master 2. i don't think you understand, all hk films have jet li and jackie chan style fighting in it, with the wires and the use of weapons from the enviroment.

corey yuen kwai, sammo hung and yeun baio are all masters of doing this in hk cinema. their are a lot of different type of camera effects that are used in jackie chan movies, he's not superman, he can't do all the things he does in the movies. they undercank their fight scenes, as all hk movies do, to make it look faster on screen. not that they can't move that fast, its just its a lot safer to undercrank.

about wushu, and perfect form.. i guess you are the all knowing martial arts master, as you can knock it as being a gymnastic form and blah blah blah.. they go through hardcore physical training, much more than you'd ever be able to take. you just seem to be one of those guys who like to konck traditional chinese martial arts because it makes you feel so hardcore and modern..

[Monkey]

Im sorry, I didnt mean one TAKE, I meant one CUT. The camera stays on him the whole time and you can see his body and face and you can see that it's him doing everything and getting hit and hurt and whatever as opposed to Jet Li or Jean Claude van Damme who have 12 different camera angles per kick and close ups and techno music and stuff.

By the way I was just making an example about Britney Spears, I wasn't imlpying that you yourself were in fact a 12 year old child, I was just implying that a 12 year old child GENERALLY doesnt know the difference between good and crap music. And britney's music is the latter, I hope we would all agree.

All Im saying is that if a fight scene has no realism and doesnt show fighting skills, its not impressive to me. Of course you and millions of others may feel differently and that's fine. So you may not give a fuk but I do and so do some others.

The problem I have with some HK film stars like Jet Li is the PRETENSE that they can actually fight with unbelievable skill yet in real life they dont have those sort of skills nor do they show an accurate representation, but still enjoy the image, reverence and prestige associated with them because most people dont know the difference.

And I dont think that Jackie Chan's fight scenes are undercranked, I mean I have actually heard him deny that in an interview. But who knows. He just says american audiences are used to seeing everything in slow motion and I think he's right.

Brandon Lee also said that they OVERcranked his dad's action sequences sometimes because he was too fast for the camera and you couldnt see his hands move.

Anyway that was just how I see things, I dont knock Chinese culture, I know Chinese culture to an extent, I've lived in Hong Kong, I've been to Hong Kong cinemas, I have a chinese girlfriend, I've watched a lot of Hong Kong movies and a lot of Hong Kong television shows, and seen traditional Wing Tsun schools in HK, training, and Ive seen them try to hit a bag and they lack power completely. Their punches are like powder-puffs. That is, the students. The instructors might be different but I have never seen them hit the bag.

Ive trained in a traditional chinese kung fu school which included wing chun and dragon (lung ying) at my university and from what Ive seen there none of the students would be able to last a second against somebody like a boxer or such because they never train for power or speed or distance or timing or anything, only TECHNIQUE TECHNIQUE TECHNIQUE TECHNIQUE. Petty technique. My JKD instructor went to the same place once to spar with the students and not one of them could touch him. They look good but if you know what to look for, they dont look so good. To me, its the same thing with martial arts movies.

And there is a wushu school at my uni too and Ive watched them and they look pretty pathetic I hate to say, and I still think they do live in fantasy land.

Thats my opinion and Im saying it because its what I believe. If I think something needs a knocking for various reasons then why not give it a knock.

Dont make judgements about what I can and can't do. Im sure I cant do most of the things Jet Li can do but Im also sure there are some things that I can do better than him like punching and kicking hard and fast. But who knows, Ive never met him, I can only go on what I see in movies - but I haven't been impressed so far.

[Ryu (non-working password]

Originally posted by Monkay
"I have a Chinese girlfriend."


sniff sniff......
Here comes the ol' memories back to me once again...
2 year relationship, and it ends just like that! Woe is me!

Thanks for opening up old wounds guys....



LOL,
I need another girlfriend!


Ryu

[Monkey]

Sorry Ryu...

But anyway, sometimes having a chinese girlfried aint no motherfukkin piece of apple pie!! They expect a lot from a guy!

[Ryu (non-working password]

Why do you think I want another?

[Chopstix]

monkey: understood. sorry if i came off as hostile, lets get back to discussing things without it now eh!
jackie chan says a lot of things, all his movies are undercranked, instead, they film at 22 fps instead of 24 fps, and show it at 24 fps(like normal films).. sometimes its not his fault for the type of claims that are given to his name, because promotions for movies and all that tend to hype him up a lot. he's only human, he uses stuntmen too..
jet li never tries to sell himself as a tough man, he always says hes never gotten into a fight and never plans to, and he admits he was a wushu champion, not a free fighting champion.. that's sometime i can respect, as he is the first to say that he's a movie star, not a street fighter. when they made the movie lethal; weapon 4, ge had to slow down his techniques and movements for the camera. as i said, undercranking is not used because the stars and stuntmen can't move that fast, its because it would look really stupid if they didn't use it.. fight choegraphy is all about selling punches and having a rhythme to a fight onscreen. that's what makes it look so good onscreen, and what makes american fight scenes look really sloppy. that's also why jackie chan, sammo and jet all fight their own stunt team onscreen all the time. its because they konw each other's rhythme and timing like the back of their hands, they can't just do fight scenes with just anyone, because its a safety reason..

[Chopstix]

monkey: yeah man, just wanted to get my point across, another thing to consider is that being a good fighter doesn't always mean being a good fighter onscreen. ever watch any of chuck norris',joe lewis or don wilson's movies" arghhh!!
anyways, hope you don't take my writing style as anything personal, just my way of argueing and being friendly
i can already see that your gonna add a little more to teh forum man, we need some good debates over here!

[Monkey]

yes, ryu, maybe go for a japanese girl i think they are supposed to be quite 'docile'. well i've only met one but she was really really nice, a little TOO nice and polite. and anway you could educate her about manchuria 731!

and chopstix, perhaps that's why their some of their american films are sloppier than their hong kong ones...

oh well lets not lose sleep over it..

but I still think Bruce Lee's fights are the best martial arts fight scenes and most awesome and Ive yet to see anything as impressive!!!

Peace

[Ryu (non-working password]

Hahaha, Monkey...if you only knew.


Actually it doesn't really matter if they're Asian, Black, White, whatever. I really want to find someone with good morals, strong opinions, and a deep compassion. (maybe in Fairy land right? )

...though Asian women are very attractive and strong hearted most of the time. At least the ones I know...excluding a few I suppose.

Later.

Ryu

[Monkey]

Yeah I know I know just bullshitting.
Of course u need all those things.

Anyway yeah it all depends on the individual, because with my girlfriend and me for example, there is no doubt, she is the boss and she is running the show and she always (usually) wins the arguments and she's very stubborn and I guess u could call her 'strong minded'!

[Ryu (non-working password]

Chopstix,
Jet has NEVER gotten into a real fight? Heehee, I'm gonna steal his lunch money the next time I see him then!
............... no...I guess that would be "bad"

Okay fine I guess I'll leave him alone...

But you can imagine what it would be like if I did

(LOL, ever have one of those night where you say whatever you want and care not about the reprocussions? hahaha)

Ryu