Attitude

[DavinWest]

Hey I just had a quick comment,
I was just noticing with alot of martial artist I meet, usually younger guys, late 20's on down, alot of them seem to have really bad attitudes. Either they make fun of other fighters for their beliefs or styles, or they think they can take on the world. I am not trying to be mean to anyone, and I dont know know all that much, but it seems to me that in an art where you are susposed to show respect and be defensive towards those trying to hurt you and so forth that there are more offensive mindsets, do you know what i mean? Like people all talking oh this person sucks they dont know how to fight, watching like UFC and such sayin oh they suck I could take them blah blah blah look at me i am talking out of my butt blah blah, you know what I am saying. We all are suppose to share a commen bond of sorts arnt we? than why are we so divided, why do JKD people have to knock on karate people, or vice versa, know what I am saying. there is being confidant, than there is being cocky. If i belive a certain way, than why should I get critisized for it? huh? EXACTLY! noone should. you main not agree with other peoples views, but at least respect the fact that they have mind enough to have views.

so anywayz, play nice, and get along!

[Evilution]

Great post. I too have known people that once they learned to fight they figured they no longer had to respect anybody. It's a total BS attitude. It's always the people that WANT to play the part of the badass that show no respect. The guys who are really badass don't think of themselves as badasses and they are respectful in general. Once again, good post.

[Kevin]

I agree. I guees it's human nature to put down other's to build up yourself. Truth be known, the common enemy is the filth on the street that would steal your possesions, rape your women, then kill you and throw you in a dumpster!

Tuhon Bill McGrath has a nice article on this very subject in the new Inside Kung Fu.


Later...
~Kev

[Ryu (non-working password]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

The stronger the fighter is, the stronger his moral code should be.

[Monkey]

Martial arts are just a way of making your body into a weapon, simple as that.

What you do with the weapon is up to you and there should be no moral code attached to martial art. It just is what it is.

Anyway, I wont dump on a karate person for their own personality or whatever, etc, but I will dump on karate as a set way of thinking and as an unscientific way of approaching fighting and martial arts.

Then again if I dont like the person then I can still say what I want about them, good or bad, regardless of what style the 'belong to'. I study Jeet Kune Do but most of my arguments and gripes are directed at JKD people who think they have the universe all figured out and try to make JKD into a 'fancy mess'.

Best to treat everybody as an individual and see them as they are.

[Chopstix]

ryu, this ones deffinately yours to reply to!!

[Ryu (non-working password]

Am I that predictable already, Chopstix?
LOL!

Monkey,
I disagree very much to be honest. Martial art is a way of making the body into a weapon. This much is certain. However, martial art as we know it is very much laced with moral codes, ethics, and responsibility. It is just like a Police officer and his gun. He uses his weapon to defend his life, but carries a strict code for its use. Otherwise he is simply a killer.
Many people get jumpy and nervous when someone mentions "moral code" to anything they are doing. Mostly because the words seem to make people wary of people "telling them what is right and wrong", etc. However this is somewhat unfair. Fighting and warfare, and the ability to kill belong to every person and every nation. The mentality of "there should be no moral code to fighting/war" etc leads to things like the "lumber" mill of Manchuria's 731. In a nearly forgotten holocaust, the Japanese soldiers took over Manchuria and did extreme atrocities to the Chinese civilians who lived there. Their scientists and soldiers experimented on women and children for the sake of chemical warfare data, that included, and wasn't limited to, autopsy on living people, chemical experimentation with human beings to see the reaction of the body, live vivasections, rape, murder, bondage, etc. There was hardly a second thought about it. Without the attitude that warfare must have SOME kind of moral aspects to it...there was no regret for what was going on. War is a hard analogy, but fits for what Martial Art really stands for. It is a "warrior's skill at war".
If strength is not guided by moral thought, reason, compassion, and empathy...we cannot truly understand the depth that such strength can have for a positive reprocussion on our society. Now this of course is not to say that you should be "nice" to an attacker trying to take your life! But strength and power, if left without any code of morals, usually leads to chaos, destruction, and suffering. This is what history has taught us.
There is a dangerous trend growing in the US where people want to not be held responsible for their actions. Moral code included in martial art is NOT a closed-minded dogma that commands you to do a certain thing...but quite the contrary, renders the MA user with a wisdom, empathy, and depth of understanding on just how powerful such emotions, and ethics attatched can really be. As fighters, we are responsible for our actions. There cannot be a dismissal of this responsibility. Morality and Martial Arts have been together for years. There is no excuse for saying that a reality fighter needs to do away with the moral codes that should be given deep reflection into. On the surface, we may appear to have different aspects of morality, but scientific analysis has proved that most people around the globe feel similar about common human feelings of ethical behavior. It will be a sad day, when the strongest of fighters...can simply do whatever they please with no moral afterthoughts...

Ryu

[Kevin]

Sometimes I think that a code of ethics is just given "lip service" in the martial arts. I like to think that I have good morals, but I thinkk those were already in place before my martial training. The andectotes of differant martial artists throughout history cause me to wonder how binding this code really is. The behaviour of Japan's martial warriors in Manchuria is an example that comes to mind. I think it is good that the different martial arts try to reinforce one's morals, but I fear that how effective they really are is more myth than fact.

~Kev

[Ryu (non-working password]

Which is all the more reason to give them some deeper thought. This kind of subject is incredibly complex and difficult. What I don't agree with is washing my hands of the matter completely simply because it is a difficult subject to ponder about. This, to me, is simply running away with my tail between my legs. Also, the Manchuria example is also important because of the fact that Japan is ashamed at what had happened, and does not teach this in its history. My best friend for example, is Japanese, and had no idea that the Japanese had done anything wrong in China... Ignoring the subject then, is also a mistake I believe.



Take care,
Ryu

[Monkey]

I think Kevin is closer to the truth.

Don't you remember that old line from Enter the Dragon?
"A martial artist must take responsibility for his own actions."

Because in reality, a martial artist is just a normal person, not a warrior. A policeman has a 'moral code', if you would like to call it that, attached to his actions because he is an enforcer of the law. The gun ITSELF has no moral code attached to it. The gun is just there for him to use if neccessary. But the policeman himself has a code to follow. If he takes an action that kills another person, while trying to arrest them for example, he can justify it as him carrying out his duty to the law. You cannot call him a 'killer' because it was his code of ethics attached to him by the government and the police force that caused his actions, not his own thinking. So he may delegate the responsibility because he was not acting as an individual.

But a martial artist has no such code. They just happen to practice physical movements which can be used in fighting, and they do this for their own reasons. But if this person has bad morals, they cant blame it on their 'style' having bad morals. They must assume responsibility. If they do something good for others, I think it has more to do with their own personal code of ethics, or morals. Their 'style' didn't order them to do good deeds. They did it of their own kind heartedness and niceness. Essentially, their own 'attitude'. The only code attached to the martial artist is the law. How they use their weapon is up to them and if they personally have good morals then they will not use it in a bad way. If they happen to have bad morals, well, they still need to take responsibility and they still need to observe the law.

Now, this Manchuria thing. This is different again because those people were warriors. To say that there should be no moral code attached to a martial artist's fighting skill is different from a warrior or soldier or government official. These people do and should have a moral code attached to any actions they take on behalf of their nation.

The disgrace should be placed on Japan for the atrocity, not on the individual. No matter how good the morals of one person in the army, for example, his code is to follow orders and so the blame for those orders goes back to Japan's government. But then again there should be another code of any soldier or warrior preventing the harm of innocent civilians. THere were cases of American soldiers in the Vietnam war, hearing that some of their comrades were attacking an innocent village and butchering civilians, made the unilateral decision to open fire on their comrades to protect the innocent vietnamese villagers. This was because they became aware of this other moral code which would also be part of their own morals, no doubt. A soldier should have no other code than his code of following orders from his nation. War is an act of a nation. So it is bound by international law which I believe Japan must have broken horribly.

But all of this means nothing to the individual martial artist. Any action an individual person takes, as an individual, is purely the product of his/her own thinking and any responsibility is purely on them. Just because one man practices a particular martial art, should he conform his morals to that of his particular martial art? I dont think that is a good approach because then he has a code attached to his own actions and in his own mind he delegates the responsibility of his actions to his code and his style and his martial art, rather than his own thinking. It is the same as making yourself a soldier in the army of your style, just another robot. Which is what the army wants its soldiers to be like. But this is not how we should live our lives as individuals.

I think that was the meaning of "The martial artist must take responsibility of his own actions", and I think that is part of the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do, that is that you are the same person, with or without fighting skills.

Bruce Lee says in Tao of Jeet Kune Do that the solution to almost all problems is compassion for fellow human beings. I think that should be reinforced through society, individual to individual, not through some sort of code.

[Ryu (non-working password]

Monkey,
that is what my post was about LOL!
"Code" is a strange word to use in all honesty, because it is not a written down thing for individuals. Our moral actions should be delved into, and reflected upon because we (as you have said) are responsible for our own actions. My point, was that the training of martial art should hold good virtues as a noble part of the training. You should be proud of it. You are absolutely right that the "gun" has no thinking code of its own (how could it?), but the police officer, because he is using such a weapon, should give much thought, effort, and reflection into noble ideals, and virtuous actions. He is responsible for this weapon's actions in his own hands, as we are responsible for our MA's actions in OUR own hands. We control our MA, not the other way around. A code of ethics that is "felt" through the study of MA is something that should be applauded, and not done away with. That was all I was saying. What I fear, is that one may say "oh well the martial artist doesn't have to follow any code..it's his own values and thinking that matters".....no, not when he is using the art for evil or hurtful purposes. I'm very much against that kind of moral relativism.
But I do not think you are advocating such a pseudo-philosophy, so I don't think we are really disagreeing that much here. That "responsibility" that you, and Bruce spoke about is what martial arts training should talk about as well, not just how to break arms and choke people out.

Take care,
Ryu

[Ryu (non-working password]

And on one last thought.

How can society reinforce that compassion from individual to individual if ethical "codes" of any kind are frowned upon by the majority? Can't work that way

Ryu

[Monkey]

Yep

I guess our hearts are in the same place but we have slightly different ways of thinking about it. No biggie ;-)

[Ryu (non-working password]

No biggie at all


Ryu

[Jack Knife]

Well, as far as a "bad attitude" is concerned, I wouldn't worry. In my experience, trouble always seeks trouble. The way I look at it is depsite being a better fighter than someone, it truly means nothing. To put it into perspective, it's like saying "I'm better in math than you" or "I'm making more money than you" or something else that is both trite and trivial. After all, we all die in the same number of ways as anyone else. We're all born the same way as well. It's just funny that during this course, from the cradle to the grave lay people who try to make others feel a little lesser than others. Why bother with such matters?