Knuckles!

[Monkey]

I did hours on the heavy bag yesterday, with no gloves and Ive always found that since I started punching with my last 3 knuckles, the last one absorbs a lot of the impact.
Its strange because now, my last knuckle on each hand has become larger than my second last knuckle.

Does anybody else have that problem? Sometimes I get a lump near my last knuckle too, sort of a little hard bump.

People watch me punching the bags at uni and say I should wear some gloves because they think Im going to split my knuckles. But I ignored them and I've never really hurt them badly, but its just annoying me that the last knuckle always seems to take the brunt of the pressure from the impact. Its not that I punch with a bent wrist, I dont. Maybe its just the way my hands are?

[Dion]

Amusing post(s)...

To put it plainly and simply for this thread.... Bad punching method...

Freedom Ultimate... !


**...a warrior is bound only by their own virtues, nothing more, nothing less... the laws of man merely govern the results of their actions of which they should always take into account...**





---------------------------
"Awareness is without choice,
without demand, without anxiety;
in that state of mind, there is perception.
Perception alone will resolve all our problems."
-- Bruce Lee
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[dan downard]

You should be trying to hit with the first two knukles.They are the strongest and line up with the rest of your bones to give you power.Hitting with the last three is called a sun punch.It is hard on the wrist and the bones behind those knukles are small.If you are having no wrist problem and your knukles are getting hard and developing,than go with it.But,I would try punching with the first two also.Get the feel of both punches.Develop the whole hand.Get the feel of both techniques.

[Chad W. Getz]

Personally, I prefer the extended unicorn or pheonix straight punch.

[jester700]

Actually, the bones of the last 2 fingers are smaller, yes, BUT the last 3 knuckles are BETTER aligned with the wrist than the first 2 knuckles. Don't take my word for it - when nobody's looking, check it out! IIRC, this is one reason Wing Chun uses those knuckles...

So, we have an issue - use the better aligned but weaker bones, or the stronger but more poorly aligned ones? Well, do ya wanna sprain your wrist or break your hand? ;-)

Personally, I like palm heels, forearms, and slaps... ;-)

[JAGMD]

Which knuckles

This question comes up time and again. Which knuckles should you punch with? My art says this, your art says that. One more time. They are both right! The idea as someone mentioned properly is to have all of your joints in proper alignment for power to be transfered through them. Boxing, TKD, some Karate styles say punch with first two knuckles. This is because of the RANGE in which they fight. They start with their elbows down, but rotate them outside to transfer power from their hips and torso through their shoulder joint. When the arm is in this position, hitting with the first 2 knuckles properly aligns the wrist. Wing Chun and some other close range (trapping range) styles hit with a verticle fist because at this range the above type of pundh is jammed, so they keep their elbow down throughout the punch. When the elbow is down and the fist is vertical, hitting with the last 2-3 knuckles aligns the wrist properly.

[Monkey]

THE SCIENCE OF PUNCHING

Why is my punching method bad, Dion? How would you know?

You dont and so you cant back that up. It is never plain and simple if you dont know all the facts because there is not enough information available to you to form a plain and simple conclusion. Your post lacks any substance.

Please lets not argue over which 'method', i.e. which knuckles to use, is best, just that they are different and neither should be ruled out without proof. Depending on the way you align your hand with the forearm, the first two can be perfectly aligned, or so can the last three, regardless of whether you punch vertically or horizontally or somewhere in between!

I think (THINK!!! Not KNOW) that the last three are a bit better for punching because if you use the first two, the wrist will bend more easily, it can bend in any direction but if you align the last three properly, they lock in one direction, but can still bend in the others but with a vertical punch this is not such a problem. When they are aligned this way it allows a sturdier wrist joint and aligns the knuckles with the strongest bone in the forearm, according to the book, "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method". But, my JKD instructor for one says that we should not obsess over such things because there may be ways of using both.

As to hitting horizontally with the lead hand, I think it is not as efficient as hitting with the elbow down because it tenses up the top of the shoulder for no good reason, i.e. it is not necessary and so it will slow down the punch and reduce its power. However it may be necessary if you punch and slip or sidestep or crouch at the same time, because your position changes with regard to the target, whether be up or down or to the side. The 'snap' boxers and classical martial artists claim the twisting gives them is superficial, I believe. Do you see boxers really twisting their hands like that in bouts? I havent seen them do it. I believe orthodox fighters get into the habit of hitting horizontally with their jabs because they are less co-ordinated with their left side and so they over tense their jabs, especially in the shoulder, which they often over extend which reduces the explosiveness.

But this is all just my hypothesis and I encourage to form you own since there is no 'proven' best way.
As to an actual scientific examination, one american university did research into comparing Bruce Lee's 'Jeet Kune Do' punch using the last three, a vertical punch; with a classical karate punch using the first two and twisting, hitting horizontally. I think the study is useful evidence in the science of punching.

The study, taking into account in extreme detail the bones and muscles and movements involved concluded that Bruce Lee's 'Jeet Kune Do' punching method was indeed stronger, more powerful and destructive.

That is the only scientific study that has been conducted on this issue that I am aware of. If there have been others please tell us about them.

[Monkey]

THE SCIENCE OF PUNCHING

Why is my punching method bad, Dion? How would you know?

You dont and so you cant back that up. It is never plain and simple if you dont know all the facts because there is not enough information available to you to form a plain and simple conclusion. Your post lacks any substance.

Please lets not argue over which 'method', i.e. which knuckles to use, is best, just that they are different and neither should be ruled out without proof. Depending on the way you align your hand with the forearm, the first two can be perfectly aligned, or so can the last three, regardless of whether you punch vertically or horizontally or somewhere in between!

I think (THINK!!! Not KNOW) that the last three are a bit better for punching because if you use the first two, the wrist will bend more easily, it can bend in any direction but if you align the last three properly, they lock in one direction, but can still bend in the others but with a vertical punch this is not such a problem. When they are aligned this way it allows a sturdier wrist joint and aligns the knuckles with the strongest bone in the forearm, according to the book, "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method". But, my JKD instructor for one says that we should not obsess over such things because there may be ways of using both.

As to hitting horizontally with the lead hand, I think it is not as efficient as hitting with the elbow down because it tenses up the top of the shoulder for no good reason, i.e. it is not necessary and so it will slow down the punch and reduce its power. However it may be necessary if you punch and slip or sidestep or crouch at the same time, because your position changes with regard to the target, whether be up or down or to the side. The 'snap' boxers and classical martial artists claim the twisting gives them is superficial, I believe. Do you see boxers really twisting their hands like that in bouts? I havent seen them do it. I believe orthodox fighters get into the habit of hitting horizontally with their jabs because they are less co-ordinated with their left side and so they over tense their jabs, especially in the shoulder, which they often over extend which reduces the explosiveness.

But this is all just my hypothesis and I encourage to form you own since there is no 'proven' best way.
As to an actual scientific examination, one american university did research into comparing Bruce Lee's 'Jeet Kune Do' punch using the last three, a vertical punch; with a classical karate punch using the first two and twisting, hitting horizontally. I think the study is useful evidence in the science of punching.

The study, taking into account in extreme detail the bones and muscles and movements involved concluded that Bruce Lee's 'Jeet Kune Do' punching method was indeed stronger, more powerful and destructive.

That is the only scientific study that has been conducted on this issue that I am aware of. If there have been others please tell us about them.

[Barry]

Knuckles...

To answer your original post. I have the same problem. I try to use the last three knuckles, and always, the last knuckle gets swollen and sore. I try to concentrate on proper alignment, however, the last one always gets the majority of the impact.

The only reason I can think of is the angle of the punch. An upward sloping angle (such as punching towards the top of the heavy bag) with a straight arm would cause the last knuckle to impact first and therefore it would take the majority of the impact.

Eventually I would expect that knuckle to become stronger and be able to withstand the punishment.

If you have found a solution, I would appreciate the advice.

[Monkey]

Barry, thank you for answering my ACTUAL question.

Yes, thats the conclusion that Ive come to also.

But I guess we have to keep in mind is that the bag is not exactly the same as somebody's head or body...
but I dont see anything wrong with the way we are punching as long as it is efficient, and as long as our knuckles are getting tougher.

However one way to avoid this problem would be to punch straight out on the bag, not upward. But then we wouldn't be hitting at head level, especially if the opponent would be taller.

Something to think about.

[Dion]

Bruce Lee's style punching is merely the same punch taught in Wing Chun Kung Fu and if you look at the scientific evidence about which fist is better and how the sun fist locks the wrist etc well you will see the fact that when you form the fist it actually slows down your strike and hence is why in Wing chun Kung Fu you are taught to only clench the fist just before the moment of impact so to ensure maximum velocity and then maximum strength, that and the things like elbow pointing down and centre line and so on but I guess that you already know being so experienced in the many forms hehehe... now if you are going to leave you wrist/hand locked in this position through the duration of working out on a bag then there should be no surprise that your small knuckle will get the most force seeing that it would merely create a rigid extension of your forearm which does not actually travel in a straight line but instead in a slight arc be it horizontal or slightly vertical and causing the effect you get on your knuckle.


I Suppose its not so plain and simple if you do not know your punching methods or get into "bad habits" that you do not realise you have heh heh...


Look at it like this Monkey.... if your trying to get the most effect out of the punch then your generally going to need to hit with all three of the knuckles...
Your only utilizing one of three knuckles to any effect... simple heh..


Freedom Ultimate... !

[Barry]

Using all three knuckles...

Dion,

I would like to learn good habits. It would seem that, not matter when you clench the fist (be it from the beginning of the strike or just before the moment of impact) you will eventually create a straight line of forearm, wrist and fist. If this strike is aimed at an upward angle (such as towards a higher, flat target) the last knuckle will still get the majority of the impact. How is one to guarantee that all three knuckles are included regardless of the angle of attack? The only thing I an think of (and believe me, in my limited experience) is to snap the wrist just before the moment of impact so that all three knuckles strike the target together. However, this seems foolish as your wrist would then be out of alignment and this would eventually cause wrist damage. Something I don't want to experiment with.
I understand that in reality, the heavy bag is much harder than a person (as long as you don't hit a bone), and therefore much more damaging to bare fisted knuckles, and that all three knuckles will have to toughen up a bit and bare fisted training should be done incrementally as to allow this toughening.

Please correct me if I am wrong with anything I have said above. I am here to learn.

[Dion]

Firstly it matters a great deal as to whether or not the fist is clenched all the time seeing that when you clench the fist you tense up part of your arm in places and hence when your arm is tense it moves slower...


I know it sounds weird to talk about aligning your fist but when you talk about using the "sun fist" arrangement then you need to also think about alignment purely due to the angle it puts you knuckles at. ie In Wing Chun Kung Fu the punch is generally only used in one direction and pretty well much at a 90 degree angle from the body straight out along the centre line so as to align the three knuckles perfectly(vertically) for maximum knuckle surface area upon contact and the other angles are covered by alternative more effective strikes such as the palm etc... so with the sun fist used in this manner it proves a very effective strike.... There are variations to this of course but generally it is always at a 90 degree angle from the body etc....


Try approaching the bag with those punches that hit only the little knuckle with a different angle/alignment eg mix up horizontal and vertical aligning of your knuckles with twists of the wrist/arm etc and you will find combinations that allow for better knuckle contact and hence better power in each and every punch.


Also I find that a pair of fingerless bicycle gloves are great for working out on a bag, providing me with a layer of protection over my knuckles yet still letting me have a range of sensitivtiny.


*...your angle of attack is important...*

Freedom Ultimate... !

[Monkey]

Firstly, I do not clench my fist, or lock it, as you say, before impact at all. That is totally irrelevant to this issue.

The issue is simply the FACT that when a straight punch is delivered at a slight upward angle, the last knuckle is the first one to hit the bag, assuming the bag is a flat horizontal surface.

Now, I have to correct one thing. Bruce Lee did not punch exactly as a Wing Chun Kung Fu stylist, and it is quite wrong to say so. You can read any of his books and find that there is great error in your statement.
He did borrow some concepts from the 'sun' punch, that is to keep the elbow down, to allow the fist to remain vertical and not to clench until the last moment, as you say. But the way he generated power in the punch is quite different, and it is plain to see.
A Wing Chun man is taught to keep his shuolders rigidly front facing. This is counter-productive to hip torque, as Bruce discovered. A Wing Chun man generates the so called 'strenght' and 'velocity' in his punch from pushing forward with hips and the back leg. THis actually does not generate any sort of decent velocity. The result is a push with a fist. The best way to develop a large momentum in a punch is to rotate the hips on a horizontal plane. Bruce did this, much like a boxer. He allowed the shoulders and torso to move freely with his hips, much like a boxer although he did not over extend his shoulders like many boxers do.
It is ignorant to say that his method was the same as any particular style. He used what worked regardless of where it came from.
Why can a Wing Chun man zip out so many of those straight punches so quickly? Because of the low velocity and momentum of each one of them. Because his fists and body have little momentum in the movement, it is easy for him to slow it down and pull it back and repeat, quite rapidly. But if you analyse each punch, it does not gain any sort of reasonable velocity.

[Monkey]

There is another serious fault in your post, and that is this idea about 'utilizing all three knuckles' to get 'maximum knuckle surface'.

Now, as an engineering student I can tell you that this is nonsense and you are just making up things on the spot without any scientific basis, for the sake of your argument that my punching method is faulty. In fact in reality, the relationship between surface area and 'power' or stress or surface pressure is opposite.

The larger the surface area, for the SAME FORCE, the LESS the material stress, i.e. the less the damage.
If your theory about getting maximum surface for maximum effect was true, then a hook kick with the top of the foot would do more damage than a hook kick with the toe of the shoe, and a palm would do more damage than a punch, and getting poked with a finger would hurt more than getting poked with a pin, and a slap to the eyes would do more damage than a finger jab to the eyes, and getting smacked on the neck with a club would do more damage than getting hit on the neck with an axe.

Now. The forearm, for the purpose of punching, has no need to move in a straight line and Wing Chun tries to conform its movement to such a straight line because it looks nice and it fits in with the centreline theory that they subscribe to. But it is counterproductive in many ways and produces unnecessary tension, here's why: for the purpose of punching, the forearm is a lever, just like the upper arm. The upper arm rotates around the shoulder joint, upwards. The forearm rotates downwards, around the elbow joint. The result should be that these two moments, or turning effects, combined will result in a striaght line motion of the fist, as if it was connected to a straight slider. But this has little to do with whether or not the forearm sits nicely on the centreline or not. That is a tactical consideration. You will note that of the photos you see of Bruce demonstrating his 'leading straight', towards the camera, his arm is extended straight from the shoulder to the point of supposed impact, which he denoted as being in front of his nose, on the centreline, for tactical purposes... but the path of the punch is not ALONG any sort of centreline. Yes, the elbow is down, so the fist is naturally orientated vertically, but that is because he saw no need to 'twist', because it does not generate any extra forward momentum in the punch and 'twisting' will only tense the shoulders which may or may not give the 'feel' of a more powerful punch.

I can see what you are arguing and these are all things that I am very aware of but I feel that your reasons for coming to your particular conclusions are faulty and you are just coming up with reasons to support the way you think is best without having basis in your reasons. I am not saying that your method is faulty. From what I understand it is more or less identical to mine, not that my method is without problems.

Now, to only practice 90 degree punching is fine for working on a bag, but what if the person is taller than you but you still want to hit their face. I mean you need to train how you fight and fight how you train to get best results, I think we could agree that that was a big part of Bruce Lee's martial art concept that we seem to subsribe to as a guide. So to change your punching method simply for the geometry of a bag so all your knuckles share the pressure of the impact is silly.

My PROBLEM is that my last knuckle is being conditioned more than the others, but I want to condition all of the last three. I have no problem hitting with all three in a punch, to a person's head, but on a flat vertical bag the last one hits first, at least for an upward angle punch. It is a simple problem and has nothing to do with most of the things you talked about.

The more I think about this the more I regret starting this thread because I am accepting that this is a problem with the design of this particular piece of equipment, not with my punching method or anybody elses. I guess it was not designed to be used without bag gloves. But I dont want to use bag gloves because there would be no conditioning, and if you look back to the last paragraph, and my original post, it was the conditioning side of things with regard to this equipment I was concerned about, NOT my method.

My solution that I am forming now would involve tying the bag slightly back and up to something, so that when I want to practice head punches, the angle will realistically represent that which I would use against a taller opponent, without having the problem of the last knuckle always hitting first.

Anyway, enough.
Peace