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#1

sparring early on in training, opinions?

the guy i train with and myself started sparring about 8 months into our workouts together (both lightly padded sticks with light protective gear, and boxing with rubber headgear and good gloves, and mouthpieces of course).. i've heard two opinions on this from many sources:
1) sparring at a real school only happens a couple years down the line.. first one learns technique, develops it to second nature, then and only then will the sparring help.. otherwise, bad habits and such will form..that present long term detriments

2) sparring should happen immediately. technique without application is useless... and one can learn better how to fight by repeatedly beating each other and learning to deal with it..than one can from hours and years of drills with no 'live' practice.

i tend to see these things from a middle roader view. i see the sparring as our "lab" or even our "instructor".. the sparring teaches us..in fact, i kind of feel live fighting in some ways is far more instructive than an instructors words.. (though not a replacement for his experience and wisdom)

the drills, on the other hand, are the storehouse of wisdom. we drill, then we spar, at each practice. then at next practice, we have the knowledge of our faults and problems for sparring (i have a strawberry sized lump on my left elbow right now, and a sore-as-hell thumb.. obviously, i have to learn to protect these..not to mention a forearm that protests when i extend it, and a hamstring that cramps sometimes...took a hellaciously hard blow there..) so we go to the drills for the answers the next time we practice..

we don't have an instructor, i haven't had one in a few years, myself. i figure with my strong foundational knowledge, we can iron out the gaps with our sparring fight-labs..



any words of advice or dissent?
any words from experience?

dwayne
Tags: None
  • #2

    I wish I had started sparring like this a long time ago. I'm pretty sure you know my feelings on this though. I believe that both ways of training can be effective, but it just depends on the person and how they are.

    Comment

    • #3
      I personally think you're on the right track. The middle road is the way to go. I think it's good to learn the motions nice and well but I also think you should learn to apply them as soon as possible. This doesn't mean all out sparring either, but at least alive, contact drills. I also agree with the term fight-lab you used. That's what we do in my class.

      For example, last night me and a student went at it. We found that he needs to work on his penetration step because I kept popping him with uppercuts whenever he shot in on me. I found that I need to work on my long range defense. He's five inches taller than me and he's got the reach advantage, he consistently tagged me on the outside punching range. We both need to work on our clinch range because that's wear we both really wanted to be, me for throwing big punches and him for taking me down to the ground.

      So after going at it we can now custom design drills to focus on getting rid of the bad habits that can be generated by just going at it, and polish up our weak spots. Then we go back into the fight-lab, new and improved from the drills, and the whole thing starts over from there. That's the way to do it, IMHO. It's really a scientific approach, which is one of the things JKD is supposed to be about.

      Comment

      • #4
        Sparing

        Dwayne,

        To me, it doesn't matter who long you've been training before you start sparring. As long as you have the basics down, you should be okay.

        Everyone develops bad habits, regardless of their style or system. It takes a good instructor to spot those habits and help you break them. The important thing is the proccess of development that sparring gives you. Not just timing or response, but also the fitness and endurance levels that can be gained through continued sparring.

        Plus. It's a lot of fun..

        Comment

        • #5
          Bad habits should not appear in sparring for very long if you get hit because it. Your mind and body should automatically step in after it realizes what you are doing wrong. I think that's the beauty of full contact fighting. There are no fallacies(sp?) about who is better, who has the "technique", etc., etc. If you get hit, you did something wrong there, if you didn't get hit and you hit back, you did something right. And every once and a while, Lady Luck holds your hand.

          There is a thread on the Full Contact Stickfighting Message Board at http://www.fullcontacthi.com I think titled Good Technician/Good Fighter. Some of the thread grew from one of Matt Thornton's interview questions at his web site. Feel free to bring it back to this thread if it helps. There is alot of talk about the usefullness of fighting as learning and being able to teach.

          Comment

          • #6
            So question then...between the 5 below which should have the advantage, all things being equal from the start?

            1. 100% Technique/Attribute/Drills Training using visualization as his method for training sparring

            2. 80% T/A/D and 20% full contact sparring with minimal gear

            3. 50% T/A/D and 50% full contact sparring with minimal gear

            4. 20% T/A/D and 80% full contact sparring with minimal gear

            5. 100% full contact sparring with minimal gear using visualization as his method for training T/A/D

            Keep in mind what you think Dennis Alexio, Gracies, Courture, or any other great fighter does.

            Comment

            • #7
              Good replys i would add 1 thing!

              Let your sparring dictate your drilling!For example you may be getting hit with a forhand strike to your hand in the neutral position in your sparring so make a drill out of it .Set the gaol (moving my damn hand/not get hit)isolate the mechanics(easy enough in this case,back forward up down).Then do just do it !You then can live it up a little an expand the target from just your hand to hand/ leg,hand/head, ect..
              the same can be applied any art grappling,thai boxing an on on ..
              The percentage of sparring vs drilling is somtimes perplexing but the most of the top gyms ,wether they do Thai boxing ,Shootwrestling or Bjj go very light so they can go all day!They rarely get hurt!An thaat is important if you have to fight in a couple of weeks or be able to go to work the next day without looking like the Hunchback of Norte Dame.With that said you still need to go all out at times .depending on your own pace,will &desire.
              BTW i love the post that mentioned sparring expierence is somtimes more important than instructors words!!right on dude!! later WU

              Comment

                • #8
                hm..

                hm. i'd have to choose either number 3 or number 4...

                just from looking at it and taking my gut feeling.

                thanks for the replies guys. i was kind of thinking like you responded.. but i wanted to see if there were any solid arguments for not sparring without an instructor for guidance.

                Comment

                • #9
                  sparring should be a regular part of training for fighting, if that is what you want them to be experts in. if you want them to be experts at doing drills sensitivity and other things, then sparring is not that important. yes, a sparring match is not exactly fighting on the street, but it is the closest thing you can to that besides actually fighting on the street. but how else will a man know how to apply his techniques, or test his chin, or build up his heart and spirit? as each person learns their technique, he must use it in application as one of the ways he is developing this technique as a skill. and in my own opinion, before i can let him go on to the next level, he must show to me that he can make it work in application to convince me that he knows it for real.

                  the amount they should see as they are progressing is really up to the instructor. but i think they should see enough sparring that it is very comfortable for them to do it, and they can hit an opponent with most of the techniques they know, or at least have it inside them how to lure his opponent in for the technique.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    This sucks!

                    I've been trying to post since I read this post and the forum gets freaky weird on me. I come back and what I wanted to say has been said. That just sucks!

                    Anyway, I think the 5 options are not options at all. They are a manner of progression. That's already been said, but not this directly. Actually, I just wanted to say something differently.

                    You can start with any of the 5 options, but if you're learning anything, you'll find yourself rotating/cycling through all of them at some point in time. One route will always be harder or easier than the other but you still get there, eventually.

                    Peace

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Hey...I was just about to say that...

                      Actually, good point made BK, different areas of progression are needed for different students at different points in there training. I think ultimately, everyone needs to choose his or her own path.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        If you go into sparring without having a wide knowledge of what you should and shoulden't do then your body will develop methods of "surviving" those sparring sessions. And they will probably work, the body will adapt its more natural movements and improve on them. But... the problem is... That may not be what you want... you may very well learn how to overcome sparring sessions and become a better fighter..but what sort of fighter ? theres a thin line between applying what you learned and between bending what you learnt to fit your current needs due to your inability to preform the technique correctly enough...
                        Sparring is important, i think there should be all kinds of sparring like Full-Contact Kyokushin matches style and Boxing style and vary the use of contact to be more adaptive. but you should be carefull and look at your goals.
                        sparring will only lead to "BAD" habbits in comparison with whatever may be you goal.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          The earlier the better, in my opinion. But there's an important distinction between freesparring and directed sparring. In fact I suppose there's a spectrum that looks something like:

                          technique --> drill --> directed sparring --> freesparring

                          But I think those should be components of learning individual movements and concepts. So that you wouldn't learn technique for a couple of months, learn drills for a few more, and then get into sparring after a year and a half. You'd learn a technique, drill it, do some directed sparring sessions (just lead jabs or just hands vs. just feet, etc.), and then incorporate it into your freesparring.

                          People say that you shouldn't spar until you have the basics down. But in my opinion, you don't get the basics down outside of sparring. You just think you have them down. The way you actually get them down is by trying them out and learning all the tiny, little adjustments you need to make them work.

                          As is we spend months learning techniques and then we spar. Sparring is different from the idealized work we did in the mirror or on the bags. And suddenly we have to make this enormous conceptual leap. We're expected to just deal with the fact that what we're experiencing at that moment in no way resembles what we've been doing for months and months.

                          The result usually goes one of two ways: 1) people go at it and then get frustrated because nothing's going they way they thought it was supposed to go or 2) people hang back and don't engage earnestly so they can instead through their favourite techniques from a safe distance.

                          People ask why wrestlers and boxers and successful in sparring. It's because that logical leap is smaller for them. There is no wrestling in the mirror for months. Your classroom, where you're figuring it all out, looks pretty much like it's going to look at actual 'go time.'

                          I think sparring should be incorporated right from word go. But not freesparring. There should be a progression.


                          Stuart B.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Heck, I'm only a white belt in WTF Taekwondo & we are sparring already. I love sparring & to be honest I would not want it any other way. I don't want to be a green belt & not have a clue about sparring. And, while granted it isn't a real fight, if a real fight does come along, then hopefully the more i practice sparring, the more I will remember about my training if a real fight does come along. But, that is just the way I look at it.

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