Sticks in JKD

[Tim McFatridge]

Agreed... great post Mr. Wright,

While I understand everything you are saying I have to disagree with some of your views on the stick work. I know exactly what you are saying about the rehearsal of stick patterns and the flow with the sticks. I guess I approach stick work a little different than others. I do not believe in getting out there and free flowing with the sticks because of the reasons you stated. How can you call it free flowing when your partner knows exactly what you are going to do because you have trained together so long. I believe in training my stick work/knife work for combat situations. Or I guess you could say scenario training.

We do not do full contact stick sparring like a lot of people as there is really no sense in it in my opinion. By this I mean there is no need to get up and spar full contact with no gear and live sticks to prove that you can survive a stick match with someone who is not really trying to take your head off.

We isolate the targets and work that target.

Like I said before I teach the FMA and JKD totally seperate of each other. I do not talk about or mention FMA when I am teaching my JKD as I feel that will confuse people and will not do justice for JKD. However, I do have people that want to learn FMA only so these are the people I teach FMA to.

When I do seminars I sometimes have the host ask me to teach FMA part of the seminar.

Again, great post and I am glad you are here to show others how to be respectful of everyone regardless if you agree or disagree with them.

Tim

[Joe Hubbard]

Mr Roper

Benefits of applied stick are to learn how to smite and skull crush! Got your attention…good, so let’s be practical, we learn weapons as an interdependent support system in order to multiply the force when necessary. The trick is to be able to transition between empty hand, actual weapons, improvised weapons and environmental weapons seamlessly. This idea of solving survival issues with empty hand alone is a misguided doctrine regardless of system, style, uniform and/or country. Sadly “sport cancer” permeates widely through many systems and confusion is ever prevalent and sets like cement.

Aside from a host of attributes that you will gain with quality impact weapon training, the main objective is to be able to use your stick (or improvised equivalent) to defend yourself and/or loved ones and create a no-win situation for your antagonist. There are also all-encompassing stick grappling ideas for stand up and grounded positions that are proven life savers in real-world violent encounters. Common advice from “Sunday Park Stick Fighters” is to throw your stick away and start rolling around looking for that lying arm bar, but guess the news- the other perp is shoving that perfectly good weapon that you chose to throw away right up your arse!

Best of luck

Joe

PS Michael- long time bro, hope you are well!

[Ghost]

We do not do full contact stick sparring like a lot of people as there is really no sense in it in my opinion. By this I mean there is no need to get up and spar full contact with no gear and live sticks to prove that you can survive a stick match with someone who is not really trying to take your head off.

In my opinion it is critical. The problem with sparring padded up is that you dont have the fear of getting hit. When you spar without any protection the fight is totally different. it becomes much longer range. slower and more careful. Much like a real fight would be.
Take someone that is used to practicing without padding and put them against someone that is and i beleive you will quickly see a difference.

Practicing without padding was probably the biggest learning experience i have had regarding stick. I think the equivalent would be a boxer that only does light contact point sparring compared to full contact sparring.IMO.

[Joe Hubbard]

Hi Ghost

Real fights are not going to be stick versus stick as in a Sunday Park Challenge Match. If you were really going full contact properly with just light rattan sticks, let alone iron wood or let’s say a copper pipe, the sparring would be over in seconds; all your students would have broken hands (and heads); you would have no students and copious law suits on your hand (if it wasn’t crushed). If you spar hard, yes you do need some protection; answers reveal themselves in having these sessions professionally coached as to point out to your guys, “You have a crushed skull”, “Your hand is now broken.” These force-on-force drills are trained with impunity by military and law enforcement as to point out the action continuum of possibilities and probabilities in a real fight- there is no way to replicate a real fight period. Vu once told me that if you are replicating a street fight for real, you would have cheeks swinging off and eye balls popping…how do you continue that sort of training, “Hey see you next Tuesday dude!” It is the same nonsense as the Bozos who claim they train with real knives- there are some things you just don’t need to pressure test, like a Glock, two in the chest, one in the head!

Out

Joe

[Ghost]

Hi Ghost

Real fights are not going to be stick versus stick as in a Sunday Park Challenge Match. If you were really going full contact properly with just light rattan sticks, let alone iron wood or let’s say a copper pipe, the sparring would be over in seconds; all your students would have broken hands (and heads); you would have no students and copious law suits on your hand (if it wasn’t crushed). If you spar hard, yes you do need some protection; answers reveal themselves in having these sessions professionally coached as to point out to your guys, “You have a crushed skull”, “Your hand is now broken.” These force-on-force drills are trained with impunity by military and law enforcement as to point out the action continuum of possibilities and probabilities in a real fight- there is no way to replicate a real fight period. Vu once told me that if you are replicating a street fight for real, you would have cheeks swinging off and eye balls popping…how do you continue that sort of training, “Hey see you next Tuesday dude!” It is the same nonsense as the Bozos who claim they train with real knives- there are some things you just don’t need to pressure test, like a Glock, two in the chest, one in the head!

Out

Joe

yeah i know that mate but its as close as you can get to the real thing which i believe is always the best option rather than only padded up sparring which leaves you further removed from reality.
Obviously you wouldnt fight a real fight with rattan sticks as they make poor weapons but good training implements.
so what you learn sparring without padding is the respect of the weapon, because it hurts like hell, im talking 6 inch+ diameter completely black bruises from one hit.
You learn to fight with the stick in a different way, a way which is closer to what a real fight would be compared to padded up sparring.
Thats enough to make you take it really seriously and properly stress test you. I cant see the disadvantage in that.

[Joe Hubbard]

Ghost

Duking it out whilst training will not enhance your fighting skills. Yes, it will train you to take a shot, but the development of skill + will = kill. So many people always say how ineffective rattan is and then start crying when they take a knuckle rap while doing a drill. I don’t get this at all; with the right mechanics you could easily kill someone with a rattan stick! I have caused serious injury with padded sticks and rolled up magazines. You must train with safety and have someone coach the sessions to point out what is happening. This transforms your training from an immature brawl into a life-saving education.

Stay safe

Joe

[Ghost]

What i meant by it not being optimal is that you can take a few hits before you are out of action, id personally replace it with a proper fighting stick and then you have a real weapon. The light rattan training sticks dont constitute a weapon in my eyes. Though it is possible to take out people the odds arent in your favour compared to other weapons.
I lived for 6 months in the Philippines training stick and we hit each other with them without armor, i was always taught it was essential and still believe it to be.
I believe you fight differently without pads and its worth experiencing this. But each to their own. Not something i really want to argue out to the death, its a personal choice.

[Guest]

What a great set of input from a great group of guys. Everyone has offered their personal view on how stickwork has benefitted them directly, as opposed to reading me the riot act on why I shouldn't question the art. Just goes to show we have some true JKD thinkers on here.

Like all things I guess, my post was written from the point of view of where I am in my life right now. I have a full time job, a martial arts career and I'm trying to forge and maintain an amateur boxing career. At times like these you have to look very hard at your time allocation and make some clear judgement calls in terms of prioritisation. For the here and now, I have to devote my time to what I can truly see and feel is of tangible benefit, I don't unfortunately have time to take things on faith.

Stick is something that I will return to in another chapter of my life I'm sure.

[Ghost]

What a great set of input from a great group of guys. Everyone has offered their personal view on how stickwork has benefitted them directly, as opposed to reading me the riot act on why I shouldn't question the art. Just goes to show we have some true JKD thinkers on here.

Like all things I guess, my post was written from the point of view of where I am in my life right now. I have a full time job, a martial arts career and I'm trying to forge and maintain an amateur boxing career. At times like these you have to look very hard at your time allocation and make some clear judgement calls in terms of prioritisation. For the here and now, I have to devote my time to what I can truly see and feel is of tangible benefit, I don't unfortunately have time to take things on faith.

Stick is something that I will return to in another chapter of my life I'm sure.

Yeah im feeling that mate, i think its really hard to JKD properly and do anything else especially if you want to compete in something like boxing as well. you have to have alot of free time to really pursue it. Even know im fighting in muay thai it would virtually impossible for me to train in anything else as im training about 6 hours a day in order to be able to compete....id just fall to bits if i did anything other than post on here eat and veg infront of the tv for the rest of the day. so to box and hold down a full time job is a mission in itself let alone get your sticks out as well.

Personally sticks isnt my strongest point but i agree with the things you say, i think though that it helps with hand-eye- coordination and reflex times though it doesnt exactly breed the correct response for unarmed combat.

[Guest]

I hear you fella. You know the first time I trained with Spencer he said do you want to compete? and I said yes. He said in that case you will have to drop the martial arts for the duration of your amateur career, at least on season. I was stunned, I thought he was being extreme. But as he rightly says, the guys I will meet in the ring are going to be 10 years younger than me, with probably 50 junior bouts under their belt, and this is all they do 6 days a week. How can I hope to compete with that when I have not just one, but a range of martial arts to uphold?

Next year and maybe the year after are going to be gap years for me in martial arts. This is something I need to do, and I'm sure I will return all the better for it.

[Guest]

Michael- long time bro, hope you are well!

Hey Joe! How you doing buddy? How long has it been since you used to beat me up in my living room?

You still teaching it hardcore and straight blasting all and sundry on the doors of London?? I hope so mate.

Drop me a pm and let me know whats going on.

[Tim McFatridge]

I'm sorry I made that comment but never made mention of my training experience. I have trained and sparred my stick work with no gear in the past. Actually for about 5 years I would meet up with some local guys from different schools and we would stick spar without head gear or anykind of knee pads or elbow pads.

Yes, I learned very quickly what to do and what not to do. I can not tell you how many times I went home with busted knuckles, lumps and cuts on my head and big bruises every where else. However, as I got older I learned to train smarter and not harder. I still spar my stick work and still have my guys spar their stick work. Only now we have hand protection and we do wear the helmet. I will not let my guys get in there and turn the stick sparring into a glorified boxing match. By this I mean that I will not let them get in there and trade blow for blow like you would in a boxing match. Because this is not teaching them the right way(in my opinion). So if they take a really good shot to the head then thats it. They have to restart the match.

Believe me everytime it is cold outside I feel every injury I ever sustained from my early stick fighting days. This is just my opinion Ghost please do not take it for anything more than that. I understand exactly what you mean but if you want to teach your guys to stick fight you do not have to have them get out there with live sticks and no padding in order to that.

When I met up with Guro Dave Gould many years ago at one of Larry Hartsell's training camp I learned first hand about power. Guro Gould was using a padded stick and I had a boxing glove on holding my stick trying to hit him. He was just demonstrating hitting the hand for the disarm. After just one hit from his padded stick I actually thought he broke a couple of my fingers because they went numb.

You can teach guys to respect the weapon without beating them with a live stick. The problem in my view is the way the system is taught. Like Michael said you need someone there to point out the fact that "hey that shot you just took broke your hand, or crushed your skull or killed you."

So many people train stick work like there doing it at a seminar. The get out there and do really pretty stick work and flow and when they spar they treat it like a boxing match. When I met Guro Dave and he introduced me to LAMECO my mind quickly changed as I saw the difference in the way it was taught. Since then I have trained with Guro Felix Valencia and Guro Roger Agbulos and have learned a lot about the FMA and stick fighting. I think it all comes down to how you train it.

I do think everyone should experience full contact stick fighting atleast once to see and feel it.

Just my opinion.

[Ghost]

^^^ thats what i have done, gloves and a head guard, nothing more.
thats realistic enough and a big leap from the full body armor sparring.

[Tim McFatridge]

That is the same protective gear we wear now. I do not like the full body armor/padding myself because it is really awkward to fight in that.

Tim

[g-bells]

That is the same protective gear we wear now. I do not like the full body armor/padding myself because it is really awkward to fight in that.

Tim

it still hurts with the padding