Sticks in JKD

[Mr Roper]

Hi

I have just entered the world of JKD study and at present I am building a foundation in my Jun Fan Gung Fu. The class that comes in after this is the FMA session, and I have hung around to watch some stick work. It looks interesting.

Would anyone share with me the benefits they have found from stick, in terms of their JKD?

Thanks

[corwin137]

Other than the obvious (that generally, most don't teach weapons as a part of JKD), I'd say it's helped me most with generalship. Though a part of generalship, would give mention to footwork concerns as well. I don't see stick, knife, firearm, flexible or other improvised tools as being separate from "JKD" (whatever one thinks that is), so it's a difficult question to answer in that context.

[Mr Roper]

Being new to the art I'm not familiar with people's different interpretations of names and terminology. I'll alter the question:

What benefits have people gained from stick training in terms of their empty hand skills, or wider attributes in martial arts.

[Happy Cat]

Ok, I will probably get hit with a hornets nest of critics for this post but here is my view. If you are training with sticks, with the idea of applying the stick forms for unarmed combat: well that sounds like Kali to me. That is Concepts JKD.

In my view training with a stick form and then applying that method to unarmed combat is essentially the reverse of original JKD. It may be in the spirit of JKD in terms of looking at what is out there and taking what is useful, and I know that it is useful for many who post here. But it is not useful to me. My mind just does not work that way.

For unarmed combat I will train as if I am unarmed. For armed combat I will train as if I am armed. For combat with a gun, I will train with a gun. For combat with a dinner plate I would train with a dinner plate. That seems simple to me.

Not trying to start up the old argument again, just giving my view.

[Happy Cat]

Mr. Roper,

I just reread your post and I see now that the stick training is not part of your June Fan Ggung Fu. So please do not take my post as a criticiziom (sp) of that class.

[Mr Roper]

No problem, to stress for the second time, the stick session is in a class clearly marked Filipino Martial Arts. I shouldn't have posted this in JKD as it has clouded the issue, but like I say this is all new to me.

Anyhoo, we're here now so once again any insight on the benefit of stick training is greatly appreciated.

[ShawnJKD]

Coordination, speed, footwork, wrist strength, range awareness, are all benefits that come from stick training and apply directly to Jun Fan training - not saying you can't get those things without training with sticks, just answering the question asked.

[Mr Roper]

Many thanks for doing so Shawn

[Guest]

Mr Roper,

You went with Rick in the end? Your training is going to be awesome sir, enjoy.

I'll be frank, I have strong opinions on stick, but I don't want to jade your view at this early stage so best to take the view of others.

[Mr Roper]

Hey Michael,

Thank you so much for introducing me to Sifu Rick, he is unbelievable.

Strong opinions are fine, strong opinions are good, I'm Scottish!

Please let me know your thoughts...

[Tim McFatridge]

Mr. Roper,

I am in the Inosanto/ Hartsell line when it comes to my JFJKD training so yes I do a lot of stick work. I also teach it and train it seperately. However, my stick training is different than a lot of other people who are under Guro Inosanto as I train primarily Lucaylucay Kali and LAMECO Eskrima.

Anyway, onto your question... for me the stick work really helped with my footwork and coordination. A lot of the footwork that we do in the FMA is very similar to the footwork we do in Jun Fan. The stick work also helped me become more aware of my angles which helped with my trapping early one... mainly with guys bigger than me.

I definately keep the two systems seperate but they have a lot of similarities in their approach to combat. Jun Fan and FMA both use economy of motion in order to be more practical and they both seek to end the fight quickly.

Just my personal thoughts.

Tim

[Mr Roper]

Thank you very much Mr McFatridge.

[Guest]

The following is purely my personal opinion from my personal experience. It is in no way a criticism of Filipino Stick work or anyone who teaches it, this is purely my thoughts – my JKD.

I removed all stick work from my personal training some time ago. I now only train stick if it is being covered at a seminar by one of my teachers, or if someone comes to me and asks me to specifically teach it. It is not something I would ever now choose to allocate any time to. I am comfortable in this decision because I didn’t do it for a week then drop it cos I couldn’t do it, I trained in it for over ten years to a good level and made an informed decision. In JKD I think we need to practise what we preach, and stick is just not something that I have personally found to be an integral part of my own expression of the arts.

If I analyse the typical benefits people attribute to stick work, I have to challenge most of them in terms of what I have personally found:

1. Stick is very good for your co-ordination. The co-ordination you gain from stick work is very good at enabling you…. to do more stick work. I cannot hand on heart give a personal reference to the benefit of the stick in my empty hand art. I see very tenuous links taught in terms of the shapes from double stick that apply to Panantukan, these moves in Panantukan can be taught perfectly well without the stick. It is just retrofitting a comparison to prove a point, like saying you can improve your hammer fists by dancing the monkey (that’s dancing the monkey)

2. Stick work is good for your body mechanics. Yes it is, but it is no more beneficial than the body mechanics you could achieve in 6 months at a good Boxing gym, and those body mechanics would have functional application, as opposed to aesthetic grace.

3. Stick work helps your flow. I believe the opposite to be true. The vast majority of stick work traps you within the confines of set patterns, what many people see as “flow” in stick work I see as a rehearsed routine. When people break these patterns it usually turns to sh1t, or you are “free flowing” with a training partner who knows what you are going to throw. Lets say you are at a high level and you do “flow” with the sticks, what exactly are you achieving? 6 months of BJJ training on the mat will give you flow, and a whole other bunch of functional attributes into the bargain.

4. Stick is good for your footwork. No, footwork is good for your footwork. The reason that stick feels like it is “challenging” your footwork is because you have to divorce your hands from your feet, making it feel like you are really “working” your footwork. You aren’t, you are just moving your feet with two sticks in your hands – that is what you are working. Who has the best footwork in the world? Boxers. Why? Because they train their footwork.

5. You need to train stick to understand the empty hand art. I personally feel a good Panantukan instructor can teach the art in isolation. If you put two equal students into training, one doing 2 years of stick then a year of Panantukan vs. one who does 3 solid years of Panantukan – I know who I believe would be more proficient in the empty hand arts.

6. Full Contact Stick sparring is…..a gas, I completely agree – but that is the benefit of any sparring, not the benefit of stick.

7. Stick work is fun. I won’t take that away from anyone, if you enjoy it then fair play to you.


If I can sum all of this up. Recently one of my teachers came over to my place from the US to do a seminar. On the Sunday morning he started with double stick and pulled me out to do some Siniwali patterns. I hadn’t picked up two sticks in about a year, and we did about 10 patterns in a row, I just had to follow his lead, and he was going very fast. He said to me afterwards “See, you write off the stick but look what it has done for your ability”. But the truth is, doing stick drills has got me good at doing stick drills, that is what it has done for my ability.

[fire cobra]

The following is purely my personal opinion from my personal experience. It is in no way a criticism of Filipino Stick work or anyone who teaches it, this is purely my thoughts – my JKD.

I removed all stick work from my personal training some time ago. I now only train stick if it is being covered at a seminar by one of my teachers, or if someone comes to me and asks me to specifically teach it. It is not something I would ever now choose to allocate any time to. I am comfortable in this decision because I didn’t do it for a week then drop it cos I couldn’t do it, I trained in it for over ten years to a good level and made an informed decision. In JKD I think we need to practise what we preach, and stick is just not something that I have personally found to be an integral part of my own expression of the arts.

If I analyse the typical benefits people attribute to stick work, I have to challenge most of them in terms of what I have personally found:

1. Stick is very good for your co-ordination. The co-ordination you gain from stick work is very good at enabling you…. to do more stick work. I cannot hand on heart give a personal reference to the benefit of the stick in my empty hand art. I see very tenuous links taught in terms of the shapes from double stick that apply to Panantukan, these moves in Panantukan can be taught perfectly well without the stick. It is just retrofitting a comparison to prove a point, like saying you can improve your hammer fists by dancing the monkey (that’s dancing the monkey)

2. Stick work is good for your body mechanics. Yes it is, but it is no more beneficial than the body mechanics you could achieve in 6 months at a good Boxing gym, and those body mechanics would have functional application, as opposed to aesthetic grace.

3. Stick work helps your flow. I believe the opposite to be true. The vast majority of stick work traps you within the confines of set patterns, what many people see as “flow” in stick work I see as a rehearsed routine. When people break these patterns it usually turns to sh1t, or you are “free flowing” with a training partner who knows what you are going to throw. Lets say you are at a high level and you do “flow” with the sticks, what exactly are you achieving? 6 months of BJJ training on the mat will give you flow, and a whole other bunch of functional attributes into the bargain.

4. Stick is good for your footwork. No, footwork is good for your footwork. The reason that stick feels like it is “challenging” your footwork is because you have to divorce your hands from your feet, making it feel like you are really “working” your footwork. You aren’t, you are just moving your feet with two sticks in your hands – that is what you are working. Who has the best footwork in the world? Boxers. Why? Because they train their footwork.

5. You need to train stick to understand the empty hand art. I personally feel a good Panantukan instructor can teach the art in isolation. If you put two equal students into training, one doing 2 years of stick then a year of Panantukan vs. one who does 3 solid years of Panantukan – I know who I believe would be more proficient in the empty hand arts.

6. Full Contact Stick sparring is…..a gas, I completely agree – but that is the benefit of any sparring, not the benefit of stick.

7. Stick work is fun. I won’t take that away from anyone, if you enjoy it then fair play to you.


If I can sum all of this up. Recently one of my teachers came over to my place from the US to do a seminar. On the Sunday morning he started with double stick and pulled me out to do some Siniwali patterns. I hadn’t picked up two sticks in about a year, and we did about 10 patterns in a row, I just had to follow his lead, and he was going very fast. He said to me afterwards “See, you write off the stick but look what it has done for your ability”. But the truth is, doing stick drills has got me good at doing stick drills, that is what it has done for my ability.

Great post Michael,

Your points are very similar to the reasons why i never followed through with my JKD training in the early 1980s.

I would however disagree slightly with 2 of the things you mentioned,

1)Dancing the monkey WOULD help your hammerfists,
2)Dancers have better footwork than boxers.

[Guest]

I hope I'm never on the same dancefloor as you bonny lad!