JFJKD Obsolete

[strblast]

Hi, I have a question for everyone, has JFJKD become obsolete in sense of effectiveness? I mean the 'system were developed over 20 years ago, is Sifu Inosanto still teaching JFJKD or does he only concentrates on Kali/Silat?

[sikal]

Originally posted by strblast
Hi, I have a question for everyone, has JFJKD become obsolete in sense of effectiveness? I mean the 'system were developed over 20 years ago, is Sifu Inosanto still teaching JFJKD or does he only concentrates on Kali/Silat?

Of course it's ineffective! Humans have changed so much in the past 30 years that nothing Bruce did is valid anymore.

Sorry ... was that a serious question?

OK ... having assumed it was a troll, I'll now flip the coin and assume it was a serious question.

JFJKD is still effective. It is just a set of tools and philosophies. How can it not be effective? As with everything else, it's up to the person using those tools to make them effective ... but as a training method, it's still completely valid.

As far as Sifu Inosanto ... of course he's still teaching JFJKD ... as are many, many others.

Mike

[HungryWolf21]

Here's an interesting bit of Bruce Lee history that my instructor imparted upon our class last night. Did you know that Bruce DID have one form (kata, etc.) in Jun Fan Gung Fu? However, it lasted all of two months before Bruce threw it out completely. The form only survived in the notes of Dan Inosanto. Yuri Nakamura, the famous Shootwrestling coach and JKD instructor, heard about the form. He asked Dan about it and Dan showed him the notes. Yuri learned the form and perfoms it for historical purposes supposedly.

[BIG Sean Madigan]

Of course it could be

Hi,

Here is how I feel on this. ANY martial art can become obsolete if it is trained in a dead manner. What makes JFJKD an art effective is the training methodology behind it, however, if you forget about that training methodology, forget the strategy that runs throughout the teachings, then of course it will be.

Hell, if you list a bunch of JFJKD techniques and then train them against a heavy bag or with a buddy that is not trying to take you head off in sparring, then it would be easy for JFJKD to become obsolete.

Just my 2 cents....

BIG Sean Madigan

https://www.bigjkd.com

[Maxximus]

Muay thai was developed centuries ago...does that mean that it is obsolete? I agree with much of big Sean's post so i won't bother echoing it right now.

In regards to the Jun Fan "form", I get the majority of my JKD training from Sensei Nakamura and i believe i know which "form" you are referring to. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that it is a series of kicking exercises practiced in sequence (which Sensei Nakamura refers to as the "kicking form"). Actually we do it quite often as a warm up in the level 2 Jun Fan Gung fu class. Just for the record, I think it is much more of a series of leg movements to improve kicking coordination and speed than it is a "kata" type dead fighting sequence. Peronsally i actually find it rather useful as a conditioning tool. Keep in mind that I might be wrong about this being the "form' that was mentioned earlier. I'm no JKD expert by any means. Just thought i'd offer a possibility.

[BIG Sean Madigan]

Five Star Kicking

Hi Maxximus,

I've never trained with Sensei Nakamura, but I am sure you are right about the form. It's called the Five Star Kicking Form, and other then that, I really do not know of any other "Jun Fan Gung Fu" form.

I know that Bruce taught the Five Star drill in Oakland, but I am many of the other students were aware of it. I really don't think it was ever any kind of 'secret' or 'lost' at any time.

Now, if you really want to learn a kata to learn from it, Bruce Lee was very fond of Sil Lim Tau (1st form from Wing Chun Kuen) and it is a whole host of useful information in it, well, at least in my opinion.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

https://www.bigjkd.com

[thekuntawman]

sean,
when you say jkd can be trained "dead", do you think the "original" jeet kune do way is one of those styles?

i dont know a whole lot about jeet kune do, but the way one guy told me, it sounds like they only do what bruce lee taught in those days.

[BIG Sean Madigan]

Hi kuntawman,

I mean that any of the 'ways' of JKD could end up being trained 'dead'. Yes, OJKD, JKD Concepts, PFS, whatever. If you are not training with the idea of real combat, and against people that are trying to hit you if you screw up, then you are training 'dead'.

Without a doubt, I am considered a member of the Original Jeet Kune Do family, and everybody that has ever trained with me will tell you that I train in an alive manner, we spar all the time, and in sparring, when things go wrong, I get hit (or tap or whatever) hard. We have a Glove up or Shut up manner of working out.

Now, I've never trained in Kun Taw at all, but I bet you've met people within your art that train hard, with a real combative essence to their training. They spar, they sweat, they bleed, and they go for it each and every time. They have an edge in their training (as we like to say). I bet you've alse seen people in your art that, well, don't. They never really bang around and go for it. They never test their stuff, they never spar full-contact, yeah, they may say they do, but you know the truth. This is exactly what I mean, their are people like this in every expression of martial art, and that goes for Jeet Kune Do in ALL of it's flavors.

Oh, and when it comes to the whole OJKD vs. JKDC debate, believe only half of what you see, and none of what you hear. Experience, and then draw a conclusion.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

https://www.bigjkd.com

[Bad Karma]

Solid words, Sean. I'm experiencing a few people in my class now that fit the subpar training description. Drives me nutz! Just wanna ring their necks ~ LOL! However, the majority are ballz out with it and that's what I expect.

I have the book with the kicking form...searching...it's titled "Tao of Gung-Fu - Kicking Drills" by William David Cox, no ISBN#, but I believe the company carrying the book is RyuKyu Books. I have the web site url if someone wants it. The book runs $6.95 (US). The book itself is paperback and has 90 pages of material. Plenty of B/W photos and advice on performing the kicking drills, as well as the Kicking Form. The Kicking form has 53 movements.

Peace

[HungryWolf21]

What is the url of the website??

[strblast]

a few more question

Hi, thanks for the many replies, reffering to my first question; is JFJKD obsolete? What I meant by obsolete is that the techniques and training methods of JFJKD is "inferior" to the many types of styles emerging nowadays. That Brazilian Jiujitsu for instance, although in JFJKD there are methods of counter-attacking a JiuJitsu technique but are they really effective in sense of the today style of combat? I understand that JKD emphasizes on real-time sparring but don't you think that JFJKD should evolve in order to adapt?

One last question, with regards to the economic of motion principles, especially the method of launching an attack, is the straightblast technique really had adequate power? I have tried sparring with straight blasts techniques such as the lead straight and the shin kick using the lead leg but it just doesn't hold much power. Am I misunderstanding the principle? Could someone please enlighten me.

Thanks

[sikal]

Re: a few more question

Originally posted by strblast
Hi, thanks for the many replies, reffering to my first question; is JFJKD obsolete? What I meant by obsolete is that the techniques and training methods of JFJKD is "inferior" to the many types of styles emerging nowadays. That Brazilian Jiujitsu for instance, although in JFJKD there are methods of counter-attacking a JiuJitsu technique but are they really effective in sense of the today style of combat? I understand that JKD emphasizes on real-time sparring but don't you think that JFJKD should evolve in order to adapt?

JKD in general is all about evolution and adaptation. As Sean said, *anything* can be practiced in a "dead" manner. There may be people out there who train this way and call it JKD. IMVHO, this is no longer JKD. JKD *is* evolution and adaptation.

The people who are still doing JKD (and doing it "alive") are evolving and adapting. They train with and spar BJJers (for instance, since you mentioned it) so that they can find ways to adapt to it.

One last question, with regards to the economic of motion principles, especially the method of launching an attack, is the straightblast technique really had adequate power? I have tried sparring with straight blasts techniques such as the lead straight and the shin kick using the lead leg but it just doesn't hold much power. Am I misunderstanding the principle? Could someone please enlighten me.

The short answer: Yes, you're misunderstanding something.

Without seeing what you're doing, though, it's impossible to tell what you're doing poorly. My guess would be body mechanics or relaxation. If you're too tense, then you won't be able to generate much acceleration ... and therefore you won't generate much power. If you're body mechanics are poor, then your power is poor.

There may be other problems, though ... but those would be my first two guesses.

Mike

[thekuntawman]

if you try a technique and it didnt work on the person you are fighting, most of the time this happens especially when a stand up fighter is against a grappler, its because you did not hit the guy with a real stopping power. i call stopping power anything that stops a guy. even for a second or two. a punch to the nose from even a kid would stop a person long enough to follow the punch up.

stopping power can be used in a takedown, a lock or choke, anything.

when your grappler freind is using his stopping power (that is, all the strength he needs to execute a succesful take down, but you are not using enough stopping power for your kick to his groin or punch to his nose, nothing you use is going to work.

if you will kickbox a grappler, really KICKBOX him. you cant hold back and expect your technique to work. pulled techniques have no place in fighting to see if something works. if they dont want you to blast a real punch, find somebody else to work out with.

[Bad Karma]

http://www.ryukyu.com/

Click on the "Books" button

Scroll down to #55 on the list titled "Stretching & Kicking"

It's the 6th book listed as:

55SKL10 Tao of Gung Fu (Kicking Drills) Cox $7.95

Special shout out to Sifu Lamar Davis for making the book, and whereabouts of the book, known to me! I didn't even know it existed until he mentioned it in casual conversation.

Peace

[Monkey]

If we have to fuss over what JKD is and what it is about, if it is not obvious, if it needs to be argued over, if we need to become partial to our opinions on what it is about and find identity (external security) in it, if we need to all hold an opinion that is exclusive of other peoples' opinions, then just forget it because its just a name. Because thats the same thing that Bruce hated about the way classical martial artists put their ideas, they separated people who were all in the same boat looking to learn how to fight, because every martial way of thinking claimed to posses truth to the exclusion of all others and so people were separated from eachother, like religion. The only reason there is more than one religion is that no religion can back up anything they say, its just a matter of faith, and thats the same reason that ANY religion still exists. Nobody can disprove it as thousands of years of propaganda.

Jesus, why the **** does everybody have to give an explanation on what Jeet Kune Do is 'all about'???? I've heard it a million times. Its about expressing yourself, its about evolution and adaption, its about Bruce Lee, its about the five ways of attack, its about truth, its about the intercepting fist, its about being like water, its about speed, its about this, its about that. The fact is, people (anybody, even me) can say what they want because its an abstract concept and nothing can be proved or disproved.

Anyway, is JKD obsolete?? Since JKD was not intended to be a set of techniques, then that question cannot be answered in that regard. But as philosophy and principles and strategies as they apply to the martial arts, I believe it is universal and most of it is just scientific observations on the nature of combat. So as long as the human body and mind are more or less the same, it wont be obsolete. At the end of the day there really doesn't need to be a name for it and thats why Bruce said he wished he didnt have a name for it.

I hate these sort of discussions, they just shit all over what JKD was made for, according to Bruce, cleaning up a mess. So I say don't talk about JKD this or Kali that or the holy Tao of Gung Fu or whatever, just talk about fighting methods which we can talk about and train and demostrate and discuss objectively and, ultimately, without attaching names to anything or putting them under banners.

Better just get back to specifics, like these:

- Yes you can get power with straight punches if you use your hips properly. They reason that the fist stays mostly vertical in these 'JKD punches' is that there is no extra momentum brought into the punch by tensing up the outside of the shoulder and so can only slow it down. The straight lead is a punch to be thrown with a minimum of effort in the arm so as to hit quickly with the hand while using the hips (pushing AND twisting) for momentum generation.

- Yes a lead side kick whether to the shin or whatever is, in my experience the most powerful kick that can be possibly executed by a human being, that is, with a bit of pendulum-type footwork and a lot of body co-ordination. Its not the quickest kick, but thats not what you asked. But if somebody can show me otherwise and/or explain otherwise, I'll take that back. Another reason that the side kick is good is because, like a straight lead, it takes deceptively little effort or flexibility once skill has been gained in its execution.