Anyone Practiced This Defense?

[migo]

Yup. That's what I've been saying all along! It's no different from what's already out there! My God man...learn to read!

Now you're taking things out of context again. I referred to the video I posted from 1934, so I was clearly referring to not needing CM to make covering work. It's still clearly an improvement over covering where you completely block your field of vision.

I'm not sure. We were talking about Quinton Jackson in a clip someone posted, and in that clip, as well as in the overall context of the fight, Quinton didn't use any effective footwork at all. To me, it looks very much like the defense at the very least encourages people to brace for incoming punches, which in turn encourages solid base, not nimble footwork.

That tells us that Quinton didn't use effective footwork in that fight. Nothing more. You need a much larger sample to work with to make that contention. You'd need to look at other fights Quinton was in to see if he used better footwork when not using it, and you'd also have to look at fights in which other people used it, and compare it to fights in which they didn't and see how their footwork differed.

Jesus, you're bad at this. The reason it's famous is because IT'S SO RARE FOR THAT TO WORK. Most people cannot and SHOULD NOT try to use such a strategy. Are you honestly suggesting that because it worked for Muhammad Ali, it'll work for "the average guy on the street?" Me? I'd rather train stuff that's high percentage, not so famous for its rarity.

A guy on the street doesn't need to hang around for half an hour. He just needs to stay conscious long enough to run.

Riiiiiiight. So Muhammad Ali vs. George Foreman...that's your top of mind example as to why it works?

If there's an example of it working, then clearly it does work.

No. By your completely inaccurate misinterpretation, maybe. But takedowns fit well into a larger structure of hitting, positioning, submitting, etc.

And covering up against punches fits in much the same fashion.

Make you a deal. Once again, you post a bunch of fights where people trained to deal with wide swinging punches using a turtle-up and wait defense, and I'll post some of people who trained to defeat wild swinging punches using crisp, straight punches. Then we'll make a case and see who makes more sense. If you'd like an example of how straight punches work better than covering up, by all means, go back to Ali. Of course, you could also look at almost any low-tier amateur boxing gym, too. The reason it's a common thread is because - NEWS FLASH - it works for average guys too.

I already know of an example of it working, and I already mentioned it. Belfort vs Silva. Thing is Kondo did the same thing, but didn't make it work as well as Belfort did. It works in one situation, and fails in another. Like CM. Doesn't make either one invalid, but you seem to think because of one example of someone using CM getting knocked out, that it's not worth training. I have one example of using counter punching getting you knocked out, by your logic then it's not worth training either.

Go back and read my original post after the clip was posted. I was talking about the clip, and calling attention to the result of that fight. Are you seriously so desperate that you can't deal with what I actually said? Are you just not man enough to say, "Shit. I guess I didn't read that. Maybe I misunderstood?"

I didn't misunderstand at all. You said he got knocked out. You didn't say he got knocked out with knees from the clinch. That's a key piece of information that was missing from your post. Are you not man enough to say, "Shit, I guess I did forget to mention that. Maybe I wasn't being clear?"

[bodhisattva]

To pitch in with the flip side...

In the SBG concept as I understand it, the crazy monkey position is part of a Boxing program that is designed to be non-attributes based. They want someone to walk into their gyms, young or old, and be able to walk out with fundementals that aren't exclusive to athletes with 10 years of training. They see the crazy monkey position as a simple base that anyone can learn to defend themselves against punches coming in from a range of angles.

I applaud anyone who tries to bring martial arts to the every day person, people who really need it, and strip away techniques that are unrealistic to learn given the constraints of natural ability. As I say, not my personal cup of tea and not convinced it is a great option for the ring, but I don't believe that is the motivation behind the technique.

Not an expert, could be wrong, I'm sure Bodhi will be along promptly....

Crazy monkey is just a beginning stage, as I understand it.

At the training circle, we use crazy monkey to get people boxing very quickly with no experience at all and we're having a lot of success with it.

People very naturally, after a couple months of CM, move into a more common boxing stance and boxing hand position - only falling back to CM when they are getting bombed on.

And for that it works really well.

I wouldn't prescribe someone learn CM and stick with only CM. I think its necessary to learn more relaxed boxing postures as well.

I do think it gives an awesome base for future boxing instruction, and it teaches "Joe off the Street" to protect his head - and quickly.

Guys learn to slip and bob very naturally after a couple of monthso of CM defense and corner drills.

I like teaching the CM/fortress fighter position for self-defense as well. In ring boxing, you are often up against someone your size and strength. In self defense, you are often up against someone much larger or stronger or both.

The CM system is designed to keep as many punches as possible from getting through. That's important for self-defense, because if the opponent is bigger and stronger just a couple of shots can bring on an advantage you can't regain.

[bodhisattva]

A negative of the crazy monkey position is that both your hands are all the way back at your face - making your shots telegraph a bit more.

That's one reason why we start people out with CM for the first couple of months - after they "get it" we move them on to supplement the knowledge with more relaxed, classic boxing structures.

Then they always have the CM when they are outclassed or getting rocked or simply fighting at very close range - and they have the more open boxing postures for when they want their jab hand closer to the opponent at initiation.

[fire cobra]

A negative of boxing is it gets beat by Muay Thai and grappling most of the time so the question could be why box?!

[Joe Hubbard]

Body mechanics dude!

Out

Joe

[fire cobra]

Please dont get me wrong,i love boxing,but the fact is it gets owned by Muay Thai and Grappling,the body mechanics for both of those methods are far different to the body mechanics in boxing,they just dont fit,its a round peg in a square box as i see it.

[Tant01]

Real monkeys...

Crazy monkey is just a beginning stage, as I understand it.

.....The CM system is designed to keep as many punches as possible from getting through. That's important for self-defense, because if the opponent is bigger and stronger just a couple of shots can bring on an advantage you can't regain.

Monkey styles are known for DECEPTION and trickery. They are not passive in defense at all.

Even backing up or guarding your head is intended to FEED a position of weakness. A ruse. A feint.

The elbows are weapons to destroy weapons. Some folks just can't get past covering up...

[Guest]

Please dont get me wrong,i love boxing,but the fact is it gets owned by Muay Thai and Grappling,the body mechanics for both of those methods are far different to the body mechanics in boxing,they just dont fit,its a round peg in a square box as i see it.

You're going to have to help me out here brother.

When did Boxing start to get owned like this, have I missed that?

A boxer in the Thai ring, sure he's going to be up against it, however the reverse is completely true of a Thai in a boxing ring. A boxer on the mat with a grappler, yeah he will get owned, but so will a grappler in the boxer's ring. So not sure I follow so far.

OK so MMA. Well, boxing is just a component of MMA, in the same way kicks, clinch, knees, elbows and grappling are just a component. I haven't seen boxing get owned by another component of MMA, I have seen MMA fighters get owned by better MMA fighters.

So, to the pavement arena. Every serious altercation I have been in has started and finished in conversation range, where hands are king, and all my primary tools have come from Boxing. All of the best people I have worked alongside in this arena also employ Boxing as their primary arsenal, to awesome effect.

So all in all brother I hope you don't mind if I'm still a little confused, and just wondered when Boxing started to get so owned?

[fire cobra]

You're going to have to help me out here brother.

When did Boxing start to get owned like this, have I missed that?

A boxer in the Thai ring, sure he's going to be up against it, however the reverse is completely true of a Thai in a boxing ring. A boxer on the mat with a grappler, yeah he will get owned, but so will a grappler in the boxer's ring. So not sure I follow so far.

OK so MMA. Well, boxing is just a component of MMA, in the same way kicks, clinch, knees, elbows and grappling are just a component. I haven't seen boxing get owned by another component of MMA, I have seen MMA fighters get owned by better MMA fighters.

So, to the pavement arena. Every serious altercation I have been in has started and finished in conversation range, where hands are king, and all my primary tools have come from Boxing. All of the best people I have worked alongside in this arena also employ Boxing as their primary arsenal, to awesome effect.

So all in all brother I hope you don't mind if I'm still a little confused, and just wondered when Boxing started to get so owned?

Hi Michael,

The most recent evidence on a world level is in K1,most of the boxers that have entered have done ok but get beat,and thats K1 not Muay Thai, they cant handle the low kick mainly,if it was in Muay Thai ring with knee/elbow and clinch then even worse for them im afraid.

More evidence is in the Muay Thai rings(of thailand) themselves the thai fighters that like to punch still have to learn the other weapon defence and attacks or they just dont stand a chance,after that they have a punchers chance.

Yet more evidence(personal) is in the local gyms,all the Muay Thai coaches that i know have had either boxers come in to train or even challenge(had that a lot myself in the early days)the feedback from the boxers is always the same and puts what we do in a positive light.

Even in a Boxing only match the Muay Thai/Kickboxer has a better chance than the other way around,given that the punches are the same,this is evidenced by the ammount of World Boxing Champions that have come from Thailand and a Muay Thai background.

My main point on this though is for a MMA event i cant understand why fighters train boxing a lot when they could train all the stand up weapons,punch,kick,knee and elbow(plus clinch).

There is plenty of evidence that boxers get taken down etc in a MMA enviroment is there not?.

Now if we are talking about punching(not Boxing) then the value of good punching in any enviroment is a great asset,there are many good punchers in the Muay Thai rings.

And lastly for the street,i have heard a lot from doorman friends that say boxers dont do all that well in a scrap that stems from doorwork(ie when called out) the main reason they give for this is that combinations dont work so good,far better to punch twice with the same hand at the same target(ie a double right hand to jaw line).

As you can see i make a distinction beetween Boxing and Punching,punching is valuable in any enviroment imho,Boxing with its wide stance turned in front foot,bent upper body position etc has to be adapted for Kickboxing,Muay Thai and MMA(perhaps the street to),i do realise there are different ways to box,upright on the toes,or weight forward, bobbing ,slipping etc.

Michael i love Boxing,the skills that can be developed are awesome,the training methods can benefit any fighting art,and i actually think that a 12 round high level boxing match is the hardest of all the contact sports(ive competed in,Muay Thai,Kick Boxing,and wrestling) getting hit in the body and chin by a good pro must be hell and they deserve every penny the get for doing it,but i stand by what i said(or meant!) Boxers get owned in Muay Thai,KickBoxing,and MMA.

Thanks for making me think Michael,i always value your opinions,on this one we differ brother,

All the best.

[Guest]

Thank you for such a great reply, that gives me far more insight into where you were coming from, and some very good points. No problems with your views, all valid, but equally I stand by my position. The very same is true in reverse.

For every Boxer who gets owned in a Thai ring, K1 event, Kickboxing arena, MMA fight, or on the pavement - I can show you a martial artist who gets owned by a Boxer.

I am both a martial artist and someone who trains Boxing, so its not my intention to bias the argument one way or the other, but perhaps to even out what I felt was a rather sweeping generalisation.

Its always great to speak to you too, and I am happy for us to differ. My view point comes from the very painful move from one arena into the other, as the saying goes "I was that soldier".

Peace.

[fire cobra]

Michael,

When it comes to "Martial Artists" getting owned by boxers im in total agreement with you,i suppose i would put Muay Thai,MMA,Boxing wrestling and bjj in the combatative sports bracket though its participants are very much fighters!.

Respect brother.

[Guest]

Tried to pos rep you, for that's a great parting shot.

...but I have to spread some around :0(

[Blue Wave Gym]

I have rodney King's street boxing series it is a good ciriculum but it's not much diffent from the boxing I did in kickboxing or any of my boxing dvds so what's the issue here mike put some videos of parrying a punch in boxing or mauy thai or mma fights then we can see whic is better.

[Blue Wave Gym]

here is a good article by Mike

I have known Michael Brewer for approximately four years. In that time, he has been a trainer for various US Special Operations units in subjects such as hand-to-hand combatives, marksmanship, small unit tactics and battle drills. More recently, he researched and developed a scenario-based training program to help prepare our deploying Special Operations tactical teams for counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations. The level of detail and realism in these programs earned Michael numerous commendations from his chain of command, and has given us a valuable tool to ensure that those soldiers we send abroad to fight terrorism will come back safely.

I would highly recommend Michael's training methods to any group which might need critical skills in the worst of conditions. His research is outstanding, and is exceeded only by his ability to get the information across and make it stick.

SFC Christopher Mennenga
US Army
Detachment NCOIC
324th Psychological Operations Company (Tactical)

Knowing what is useful starts with defining what you need. Too many people these days preach the Bruce Lee axiom of use [take] what is useful, disregard what is useless, and add what is specifically your own without ever putting much thought into what that really means. In a lot of cases, it's an excuse for not really examining the truth of things, and for just doing whatever one feels like doing that day.

I have trained a lot of people over the last fourteen years. Some have been civilian hobby martial artists, some have been professional NHB fighters, some have been cops, and some have been military. The first thing any of them do, however, is clearly define what the object of their training will be.

For military and law enforcement personnel, this is easy. Their chain of command lays it out in black and white, and everyone is on board, like it or don't [not]. But since I'm assuming most of the people reading this will be civilians, let's define our scope, shall we?

For the purposes of this article, I am going to make some assumptions. The first of these is that you are training in the martial arts as a means of effectively defending yourself or your loved ones against an attacker. I will also assume you are willing to train so as to fight effectively, and without moral inhibitions should an attack occur. I will also assume that martial arts is the path you've chosen to achieve this because it holds some personal appeal to you over some other, arguably more effective, means of combat (such as, say, shotgun and pistol classes). With these three assumptions in mind, we can clearly define our purpose. It is "I would like to train toward building effective and realistic fighting skill in the realm of street self-defense. I also want my training to be personally fulfilling without compromising its effectiveness." Sound about right? If so, let's move on.

Let's take the first part of our mission statement: "I would like to Train." This insinuates that we understand this will be a process, not an event. For that reason, the first phase in our development is gearing ourselves up for actual participation. This means conditioning the body and mind for more intense training. This is a universal concept, by the way, and it applies to any art, as will the rest of the ideas I am writing about. Street fights don't happen in any particular style, so I'm not going to worry about them here, either. We'll call our first phase "Preliminary Conditioning."

During this phase, you have two main responsibilities. They are:

Get your body in the best possible condition you can so that you can train realistically without being injured
Learn the fundamental tools in each of the ranges of combat. You don't need to be an expert, but you need to understand kicking, boxing, clinch, and grappling ranges. If you want my advice, it's a good idea to learn a few basic weapons as well.
Depending on the student, this can take anywhere from a week to two years or more. Remember, this isn't about rankings or certification. It's about effectiveness, and we'll do what it takes. If you're in great shape and you have a good background, maybe you're ready to move on right now. If you're a grossly overweight office worker who's never done anything physical, then be patient and take your time. But don't neglect the preparation! Once you've gotten to a level where the above criteria are met, move on to Phase Two.

In Phase Two, we are exploring the more ambiguous elements of fighting. Here's when sparring becomes the core of your training. By now, your body can take a little routine abuse, and you know enough about the tools not to be too afraid. Phase Two is all about being uncomfortable. You're pushing emotional and mental limits now, more than just physical. In this stage, you'll deal with your own hesitation, fatigue, fear, and anxiety. With the help of a good instructor, you'll overcome each in turn. Your sparring will teach you those intangibles like spatial relations and timing, and the psychology of fighting. You'll learn to read body language more effectively, and if your instructor trains you right, you will learn to finesse, rather than fight your way through. You'll look at all sorts of various scenarios you might encounter for real, such as knife wielding assailants, multiple attackers, confined spaces, uneven ground, etc. More, you should submerse yourself in it with the goal of being at least a little uncomfortable in every session. Once you get fairly comfortable with your adaptiveness and ability to work under pressure, you can move on to Phase Three.

In Phase Three, you begin to branch out from a purely combative art and begin to explore what you train with more freedom. There's no telling how long this takes. For me, it took a long, long time. In my case, I worked in lots of "hostile environments" where fighting was everyday business. I got into lots, and lots of fights. I won some, and I lost some. In a lot of cases, I wasn't really sure which. But one day after a particularly rowdy brawl with about twenty-some angry patrons and six fellow bouncers, I decided I'd just about gotten where I needed to be. I had been training for so long as though street fights were a life-or-death affair, that I had overestimated the vast majority of them and in my own head, made them far worse than they'd ever be.

I decided to back off from the "killer" training and have a little fun. For me, this was a time of realizing that, while serious, street fighting was not something I'd HAVE to face every day. At that time, I chose to, but that's different. In all those fights, I realized it was still the most basic, fundamental things that worked best. And beyond even that, my ability to stay calm and think while the other guy was all wound up and angry was even more important still. Content in the knowledge that I could fight as well as I'd probably ever need to, I allowed myself to explore some of the more "in-depth" parts of our training. I really started studying the history and development of martial arts styles and systems, and I began to really enjoy training with people outside my own circles. I'd trained with others before, but more or less to make sure they didn't have anything that could surprise me. These days, I do it just because I love discovering other arts, whether I end up using the material or not.

One can argue that there is more to functional training than what I've written here. Some argue that there's less. Some folks are totally content to stop at Phase Two. That's fine. Again, it's based on your own definition of what you're trying to achieve. To close this out, though, I am going to list a few universal truths I've discovered along the way:

Using the "Crawl, Walk, Run" method of instruction is a good thing. Learn the fundamentals, and then gradually add pressure to enhance realism. It works for virtually any skill in any setting.
Fighting is not complicated. It's simple. You can train forever to be better at it, but really, it doesn't take as much as some people think.
Personal motivation and the achievement of one's own goals is the only measure of success in the martial arts. Never mind rank. Just get where you're trying to go.
Performance and ability are the only real measure of a training method's worth. If the training method doesn't enhance these two things, scrap it. It's a waste of time.
Now, the above relate to realistic fighting skill, since that was our goal from the beginning. I know I'm not saying anything new, here. I also know that it's all true. I have trained US Special Operations soldiers to go and fight terrorists and insurgents with the same methods we looked at here. And no one from my teams has been killed yet. We all know at some level that there's no magic voodoo in the martial arts that can answer everything. Not grappling, not boxing, not even guns and knives. But I'll tell you this much: if you set a definite goal, work out a progression to get you there, and stick to it, you'll have the answer to most things you'll ever come across. You have my word on it.

Mike I knew you were psy-ops but didn't know you were SF what the heck?
So you're a green beret?