Bruce & NHB

[NHBMARK1]

Hey all,
Just curious on your opinions..
How do you think would Bruce have done in NHB competions in general.
Also Bruce's prime & Ricksons prime...Pick a winner.

[Twisted up]

Impossible question to answer.


You have to realize that Bruce Lee understood that you had to train NHB-like (anything goes). He wasn't that great of a grappler and was only beginning to explore it when he passed away.

Bruce Lee was a fighter of the 60's and early 70's. He wouldn't have been able to compete against the pro-NHB athletes of today. This includes Rickson.

While I don't like to respond to posts about Rickson's "greatness", he clearly would've have the advantage over Lee in a NHB situation--for the simple fact that his method was born of NHB. He was a fantastic jiu-jitsu grappler (this much can be perceived as true) and would've been in his "element" against someone from Lee's time.

Athletes of the late 60's and early 70's pale in comparison to athletes of today. Neither Lee NOR Rickson Gracie could compete against the current crop of NHB talent---IMHO.


Good training!
John

[Maxximus]

It's not fair to compare bruce with guys twice his size who have much more developed technique and modern NHB experience. But if you were to put Bruce up against martial artists of his weight class during his time in an NHB tournament I think Bruce would've cleaned house on the majority of them. I don't think it would've been pretty though. There'd be a lot of nut kicks and biu jees.

As for Bruce vs Rickson, I'll simply respond by saying that this is the stupidest question I've ever heard. Only a Mcdojo kid raised on kung fu movies wouldn't know the right answer to that.

[Twisted up]

You see......that's another thing, there are no "nut kicks and bil gees" allowed in NHB contests.

That's why I said that in a self-defense situation, Bruce would be a tough opponent.

It's just an impossible question to answer. The "what if's" are endless:

*What if Bruce were alive today?

*What if Bruce were alive today and in his late twenties/early thirties?

*What if you could warp time and transport all of TODAY'S NHB champions back to the late 60's? (They'd still kick his ass in NHB)

*What if I had a third f'in arm? I'd get a TON of submissions!!! (I already have a third leg..... )


You see why it's an impossible question.


Think about this however: Wilt Chamberlain had a 100 point game in 1962. In that age, he was the "Bruce Lee" of the basketball court.

In this day and age, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for him (or anyone) to score 100 points (even against the Clippers) Because those "Bruce Lee's" are everywhere in the league now! Athletes are much better now 30 years later. That goes for fighters too!

Bruce was ahead of his time. 30 years ahead. Time has finally caught up and now, almost everyone trains the JKD concept in some way or another. Fighters are "adaptible", capable of smoothly flowing from one range to the next with no lack of skill in each. That was what Bruce wanted in his students.

They're EVERYWHERE now. Intelligent, showing skills in each range from stand-up to the clinch, to the ground.

[thePrince]

IMO wut made lee the best is that no one could react to his attacks in time to do something about it! i dont believe the shamrocks or any other NHB fiter would stand up against him. grappling requires for one to be on the floor, but i've never seen a fite that started out that way. i say gracie would have been a match for him, but he would lose after at least 10 mins. IMO
how could u guys not have fate in the man who deicated his existance to the art!
have u seen the TLC documentary on bruce, where he did a blinding kick behind the scenes in a middle of a conversation. and that wus in his Green hornet days, we all know that he got better and wus considered at his peak in enter the dragon, (and if that ****** wus holding back...whoa) i dont believe that it is thinkable to doubt bruce lee.
my qoute:
if you cant react in time to my attacks, you cant block it, how d u still think that u can beat me?

[Twisted up]

thePrince: Hey man, learn to use the spell check!!!


Also, your opinions of Bruce's abilities came from where? Your OWN opinion, what someone else told you, what you saw in movies, or the myths, legend and otherwise supernatural abilities that martial arts magazines so often LOVE to credit Bruce as having had?

Just curious.


You know how after many famous people pass away, their legend, feats and accomplishments are often exaggerated out of proportion and they take on a "larger than life" persona? It's like the weren't even human or something.

This happened with Lee. You see Lee never fought professionally against skilled fighters. He was A MOVIE STAR folks!!!!

I'm not saying he wasn't good. His JKD concepts were the work of genius. I'm only saying he was human and could be beaten.


John

[NHBMARK1]

Interesting replys, thanks guys!
And as for Maxximus? Chill bro, the question was for FUN..
Look it up & go have some..

[Monkey]

Now, people (me too a bit) always like to theorize about Bruce vs This guy or that guy.

Personally, I think its a silly thing to do but we cant help but imagine.

Of course Bruce was very human and could be beaten. Especially against pros, it would only take one slip up. On the other hand if there's anybody who you'd trust to not make mistakes it would be Bruce... just because he had trained so long and hard. But if we are just talking about comparisons of skills and methods, then...

Now, I dont know if yall have read Davis Miller's book, Tao of Bruce Lee. But this guy and Joe Lewis talk about how Bruce wouldnt have been able to stand up against a heavyweight pro boxer, or whatever. Basically saying that Bruce wasnt the greatest fighter of all time or anything like that.

The thing that really shits me about all this is that nobody said Bruce could beat somebody in the ring, and its silly because thats not how he trained.

I think a more interesting question is how would he have gone in a real fight with one of these people, not a sporting match. Because although NHB is Gracie's sport, fighting was Bruce's sport, and I think he was at the top of his game.

I think if Bruce was to get in the ring with Muhammed Ali he would get trashed, but the second you take it out into the street, things would be very different. Very.

I mean, do you really think that in a fight with a pro boxer or grappler or whatever, that Bruce would try 'box' them??? I don't think so. He's going to use the nastiest tactics possible. Although you can call it cheap, thats the way he did things, if you are going to put rules and regulations in and be scared of hurting somebody, then there is no reason to be fighting other than ego or money or whatever. If you are fighting with them, then you hurt them. Bruce DID protect his groin, he was aware that people could attack him there. He did think about those sort of things and prepare himself for them. Nobody did, back in the day. He said it was unfortunate that groin protection had deteriorated to almost nothing in martial arts because of sporting rules and because of what was considered "fair play". Same reason boxers dont kick.

He would have been stomping on their feet, jabbing their eyes, slapping them in the groin, real fast, to fast for your eyes to see his hands, you name it. All it takes is a slap to the groin to end a fight. Now, personally, although its just an opinion and it cant be backed up, I think Bruce would put almost all the boxers and 'fighters' in the world into hospital pretty ****ing quickly, in a real fight. I dont think they could even compare to him. How many boxers have had somebody kick at their kneecaps or groin, or tried to poke their eyes or slap their groin in a clinch, or whatever?? How much of their stuff would just plain not work once their were fighting somebody who didn't fight 'fair'?

About grappling, well, you decide about that but i think that it would be very hard to grapple Bruce Lee, in the street, and make him submit. He'd be biting, putting his fingers in your eyes, grabbing your groin, whatever. ANd thats assuming that he couldn't grapple... which I don't think is quite true. I think he studied grappling and knew what was what in grappling, and was starting to incorporate it more when he died. Seen the episode of Long Street where Bruce was teaching the dude about JKD?? He did the side kicking and punching and all that, and he got the guy in (I think) a front face lock, like front control with a headlock except the guy was face down. Bruce told him that he couldnt do anything, his arms and legs couldn't be used for attacking. They guy agreed.. Bruce told him "BITE ME!"... "Biting is very efficient at very close range". I dont know about any of you but I dont think I could easily pull off any of the grappling stuff I know against somebody who is really fighting dirty. Most positions in grappling has your groin exposed to a hand strike, or a really damaging bite, or eye gouge or fishhook or SOMETHING that would turn things around.

So far this is all without considering how his trapping skills would work, or strength or speed or anything like that.

I just think that here is a guy who is so relentlessly scientific and single minded and real in his training. I dont think most of the pro 'fighters' in the world could touch him, let alone beat him.

But thats just my opinion and if you want to have an opinion about these sort of silly things you need to have some imagination.

Oh one last anecdote.

I read somewhere that in one of his fights, Bruce punched a guy head and gave the guy a fractured skull......

Recently, Mike Tyson got into a street fight, punched some guy in the head... Mike ended up in hospital with a broken hand.

FOr instance, take the gloves off, and see how thnigs change.

Bruce was so far ahead of everybody else back in the day and I think he still is, in some ways. Nobody's more scientific and committed than what he was.

[NHBMARK1]

That was a good read & very well thought out.
Thanks Monkey!

[likuid]

dudes-

i never get involved in the who would be who stuff, so i won't comment on that.

twisted up -

Bruce Lee, regardless of what you think of him, was first and foremost a martial artist, who was charismatic enough to have an acting career. Your exposure to him was simply through the big screen, it is very naive for you to accept that image for who he was.

[camundongo]

first of all i respect bruce lee and rickson gracie and all the other fighters that are pitted against Bruce Lee in our imaginations, but the truth of the matter is that this question is just an excuse for an argument, i mean its like "what came first the chicken or the egg?" no one can prove it either way (at least not yet) so why waste time trying to create fights between two opponents that il never ever face off against each other, therefore never establishing a winner to the fight or this argument...