Trapping...Does it work?

[fire cobra]

I train both "street" and MMA. I don't think there's as big a difference as some people think. Awareness of biting will make your BJJ better,if I'm doing a triangle right you'll bite your own arm before my groin...

On to trapping. Trapping is an Immobilization Attack. Render a limb immobile so you can strike. If when I say trapping you think "pak sao",you've got a pretty limited view of trapping!

I do both Kali/JKD and MMA. So I do both "tippy tap" stuff and rolling/live sparring. Just different sides of the coin to me. "Tippy tap" builds my attributes for combat. Not everything has to have an immediate short term value. In the long run,handball would help my hand/eye coordination and cardio. Both of which would help my combatives without an immediate "fighting" application.

So when asked "does trapping work?" I would ask what's your definition of "trapping"? Then I would say "only if you're using it when necessary".

My instructor said to me: No obstruction=no trap.

Just my opinion...

And a good and valid one at that sir,in my opinion that is.

[tkeplar]

trapping, sticking, chi sao is best utilized as a back up to a failed attack and or a counter attack for it is more of a countering method than an attacking method, tho if you know how to use it, chi sao can be used offensively.

from all the post i have seen over the years it often appears to me that when someone says that trapping does not work, the real question in my head is how are they training.

having been involved in martial arts and other forms of self-defence for some 35+ years and having trained with some of the top people in this area (trapping) i can only comment on my own training and experience.

if someone wants to do some research then look at some u-tube footage of jesse glover, david peterson, wong shun leung and a few other top instructors in this area.

it does take a lot of training with the right people generally to get enough skill to use this stuff in a real fight. while i do feel a person can learn a lot on their own, it will be very difficult to do it all by yourself. you will need quality feedback from time to time, minimum of a few times a year for some good feedback, perhaps in a seminar, training with someone who really knows what they are doing and see how your improving.

kind regards

thomas Keplar

[sgrody]

My three cents added to the fray, I mean discussion.
- I do think that while the general level of much martial art has evolved in recent years, that average human fighting instincts and reactions are the same as they have been since the dawn of something or other. One of those instincts is to try and obstruct strikes (even after they have been successfully delivered), not beautifully by martial art or boxing standards, but an attempt to block or cover nonetheless, and while attacking another line at that point of distraction is a good way to go, a trap is not just a classroom wet-dream fantasy at that point.
- Anecdotally, when my guys interact with various kinds of trained and untrained people willing to move around uncooperatively, it’s not unusual that when their opponent become surprised or overwhelmed by something that they tend to freeze up and become more available to manipulations.
- That being said, stop-hitting, time-hitting and well-timed combination hitting in general is of prime importance along with robust defense and “foul tactics.”
- Whether learning how to fight or how to play jazz, we need to be mentored by someone with higher understanding on a one-to-one basis to really progress to a fine-tuned skill, and unfortunately, the large class environment tends to lead to techniques, drills or patterns that for whatever their relative worth are also so that most people can feel they are learning something. It’s important for both instructors and students to see what works under what conditions including real-time speed and then problem solve (is it the technique, the training method or me where the problem lies?).
- Bruce Lee told Dan Inosanto (paraphrased) “Be more loyal to your own experience than whatever I teach you.” Dan kept some things in the curriculum that Bruce threw out. Though my roots are obvious, my curriculum doesn’t look like the curriculum that I learned, partly because I teach one-to-one and it gets very individual very quickly, and because of what it seems is helpful for my students to “get it.” And by that I mean when I try in real time to get to them, fake them out or surprise them somehow and they deal with it smoothly, then I know I’m on the right track.

[Ghost]

lmao, great thread, talk is cheap.
im with mike on this pretty much.

The way i see it though, you guys are jsut talking and talking. its on the trapping guys to show something.
So stick a couple of videos up on youtube, demonstrate what you mean, or shut up basically.
If you cant stick it on youtube then you cant do it. Cos if you could, you would.
So lets see it.

[Joe Hubbard]

This reminds me of a story about Rick Young and Geoff Thompson.

If my memory serves me right, Geoff Thompson had made some comments in a magazine suggesting that trapping would not work against a boxer. Rick Young took exception to this and paid Thompson a visit to demonstrate against any of his guys that he could use the skill of trapping against a boxer. As the story reached it's conclusion, Geoff Thompson opinion was converted.

Joe

[tkeplar]

my experience is that few people know how to train sticking as originally taught by bruce lee. few have the wing chun base. few have the needed skills. some of the best methods i have experienced are from the jesse glover and wong shun leung linage of people who trained hard and have had some real life experience. many of the comments i read leave me wondering about the type of training the person is doing. like henry ford said "whether you believe your right or wrong, your right"

tk

[Ghost]

This reminds me of a story about Rick Young and Geoff Thompson.

If my memory serves me right, Geoff Thompson had made some comments in a magazine suggesting that trapping would not work against a boxer. Rick Young took exception to this and paid Thompson a visit to demonstrate against any of his guys that he could use the skill of trapping against a boxer. As the story reached it's conclusion, Geoff Thompson opinion was converted.

Joe

ill email Geoff tonight and ask him about it. see what he says, would be interesting to hear.
I still think this thread is useless without a video.

[John McNabney]

Why does what someone else do threating you?

From reading all of these post, I wonder : Do people really know what the word trapping means..?

Here is just one, if I freez your mind..... Is that not trapping ? This is just one of many ways to trap... If you don't like to trap great, if you like to trap great... So where lies the problem boys? Hmmm?

Something to think about...

Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney

[corwin137]

My three cents added to the fray, I mean discussion.
- I do think that while the general level of much martial art has evolved in recent years, that average human fighting instincts and reactions are the same as they have been since the dawn of something or other. One of those instincts is to try and obstruct strikes (even after they have been successfully delivered), not beautifully by martial art or boxing standards, but an attempt to block or cover nonetheless, and while attacking another line at that point of distraction is a good way to go, a trap is not just a classroom wet-dream fantasy at that point.

Lots of topics in the thread now, but on the title proper, this says what comes to mind for me. As with the counter examples of other ideas (besides trapping)- all things in context.

[Wi Kali Group]

Mike Wright said "Wi Kali Group - I do understand many of the points made in your post and (if you don't mind me saying) now that you've calmed down a little I see much sense and wisdom in your point of view."

Ghost said "lmao, great thread, talk is cheap.
im with mike on this pretty much."

Glad to hear it ghost

I can't find it on you tube but look for Sifu Vunak's old trapping video from panther produtions. It's hard to find its so old. He shows it far better than I could how trapping might look in a fight.

But this is the old straw man argument. If we did go out and video tape it. It still wouldn't do. Then it would be anyone can make it work on their buddy or student. So then your back to making street fighting work in a ring sport with rules & protective equipment.

The only way to satisfy people would be to film a real street fight where you pulled it off. But then you would have legal issues when you posted it on youtube. Sorry not me.

[Crafty Dog]

Why should someone put it for free on youtube?

[Joe Hubbard]

ill email Geoff tonight and ask him about it. see what he says, would be interesting to hear.
I still think this thread is useless without a video.

Please let us know what Geoff says about that. I know that Geoff and Rick are the best of friends. I'm pretty sure I read this story in an article Rick wrote for MAI magazine some time ago.

Check out this video clip of Gentleman Jim Corbett utilising a trapping motion to remove an obstruction all the way back in 1894:

James J. Corbett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think one of the common misconceptions is that people are led to believe that real time trapping is going to look like a reference point trapping drill. In reality any pinning, passing, pushing and/or pulling motion to remove an obstruction is trapping.


Joe

[wedge21]

Hi all,

this is my first post here. I'm 37 and live in Europe. I've been training in wing-tsun and in RBSD, apart from some boxing and MMA.
Trapping isn't easy to apply in chaotic, ugly real fights, but it can work if you train specifically for it. It must be streamlined, I believe. Basic pak-sao/lop-sao stuff that you use when you attack and your opponent covers. It will allow you to re-open his guard and continue your attack.
Thing is, you should think of it as a very short, quick trapping. Not the endless tactile sensitivity exercises and patterns that you use in the gym to build your reflexes....

More generally, most people think that martial arts drills are of no use. But for example, legendary UK doormen like Trevor Roberts (Traditional Ju-Jitsu and Judo!) made even armbars and armlocks work for them hundreds of times in difficult situations in the street.... There are doormen and VIP protection bodyguards who use Shotokan Karate.

So while I agree that this stuff is not for everyone, we can't just say "it doesn't work". IMHO some trapping skills are useful; but very fine motor-skills are way too difficult to apply.

[Wi-Stickboxer]

I think one of the common misconceptions is that people are led to believe that real time trapping is going to look like a reference point trapping drill. In reality any pinning, passing, pushing and/or pulling motion to remove an obstruction is trapping.


Joe

Couldn't have said it better myself! I consider most clinching a form of trapping. It goes way beyond "pak sao",which is what most people think.

[Ghost]

Hi mate, he denies the report and says it is entirely untrue.

you can email him sales@geoffthompson.com to get the same response.

He declined to reply on the thread but im sure he will email you the same reply if you choose to email him.
I had suspected this is the kind of false info that is put about commonly, not your fault, its an easy one to believe which is why i wanted to ask him personally.

will look at the video now mate

Please let us know what Geoff says about that. I know that Geoff and Rick are the best of friends. I'm pretty sure I read this story in an article Rick wrote for MAI magazine some time ago.

Check out this video clip of Gentleman Jim Corbett utilising a trapping motion to remove an obstruction all the way back in 1894:

James J. Corbett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think one of the common misconceptions is that people are led to believe that real time trapping is going to look like a reference point trapping drill. In reality any pinning, passing, pushing and/or pulling motion to remove an obstruction is trapping.


Joe