Joe Lewis describes street fighters as low skilled in Black Belt Magazine

[Kvntu]

Good points Justthefacts and I have always been a little curious as to why Joe seems to slip between praise and put downs when he speaks of Bruce.

[Justthefacts]

Lewis' Logic

Kvntu: Bruce Lee once told Joey Orbillio that he thought that Joe Lewis was the best point fighter of the 1960's. Years later, Lewis reciprocates by stating that Bruce Lee was the most influential martial artist of all time, but that he should not be in the discussion in terms of real fighting ability. The following is the ever winding road of Joe Lewis' arguments regarding Lee's fighting ability.

In the book, THE TAO OF BRUCE LEE, Lewis told the author that "Bruce didn't spar anybody, except for the guys who sucked up to him." This prompted me to send Joe Lewis an e-mail and I pointed out several things...

1) I reminded him of his contradictory statements regarding the testing ground for proving oneself as a fighter. Joe had stated that since Bruce didn't compete in point tournaments, he was unproven as a fighter, yet Joe had also stated that point fighting was "a game of tag."

2) I then reminded him that Louis Delgado was a successful tournament fighter and the last fighter to defeat Chuck Norris, yet Delgado stated in a 1969 Black Belt magazine interview that Bruce Lee was the toughest man he ever sparred against.

3) I also expressed the fact that Bruce Lee sparred with many of his students. Several of Lee's students were extremely skilled and tough fighters. This included the likes of James DeMile, Jesse Glover, Howard Williams, and Bob Bremer.

Joe Lewis was kind enough to respond to my e-mail and I'll paraphrase his answers.

1) The only way to prove that you're a legitimate fighter is to have a documented record of bouts in the ring or on the mat. Since Bruce Lee never went into the water, how do we know he could swim?

2) Louis was not a great fighter. One has to beat top competition to prove oneself as a fighter.

3) None of the men listed competed in point tournaments or kickboxing matches. None of these men has a proven record of being a legitimate fighter.

Notice how Joe did not address his contradictory statements regarding the significance of competing in point tournaments? He also upped the criteria in terms of Bruce Lee's sparring history. He went from claiming that Bruce Lee "didn't spar anybody," to stating that Louis Delgado wasn't a great fighter. Well, if Delgado competed in point tournaments and was good enough to defeat Chuck Norris, shouldn't he be considered a "proven" fighter. If that is the case, doesn't Bruce Lee's dominance over Delgado in sparring matches mean that Lee "proved" himself as a fighter? In terms of the skill level of Bruce Lee's students, many of them were feared street fighters, but according to Joe Lewis, street fighting skills are not the measure of a true fighter. Lewis' admission that he has never been in a street fight begs the question...Joe Lewis never went into the water, so how do we know he can swim?

[Garland]

\Lewis, Mike Stone, and Chuck Norris have all made comments about how Bruce Lee never "proved" himself as a fighter.

Their lone criteria involves Bruce not competing in point tournaments in the 1960's. Well, color me a skeptic, but I believe that Bruce Lee's abundant street fighting resume is far more impressive than anyone's point fighting resume.

As a teenager in Hong Kong, Bruce Lee had a reputation as a feared steet fighter. Yip Man's son called Bruce, "fighting crazy," and his itch to street fight continued during his years in Seattle. From 1959-1964, Bruce Lee engaged in 7 street fights, all were witnessed by reputable martial artists. This included the likes of Skip Ellsworth, Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, and James Lee. In essence, Bruce Lee was a great street fighter and Lewis/Stone/Norris were great tournament fighters. As Sifu James DeMile once said, "I would be happy to explain the differences to those people who think that winning trophies and smashing heads is the same thing."

1) Didn't Bruce Lee KILL Chuck Norris ( )
2) Point fighting entails...fighting for points? Or "full contact" kyokushin style bouts? One is hardcore, one is...well...it's a moot point in the day of mma where more or less "complete" fighters are the norm.
3) From all accounts I've heard, it seems like Bruce Lee was sort of a bully and a tough when it came to fighting. But he was also Bruce Lee.

[Justthefacts]

Three Points

1) Didn't Bruce Lee KILL Chuck Norris ( )

He certainly did and if it wasn't for Lee's untimely death a year later, the police in Rome would have sent Lee to the big house for life.

2) Point fighting entails...fighting for points? Or "full contact" kyokushin style bouts? One is hardcore, one is...well...it's a moot point in the day of mma where more or less "complete" fighters are the norm.

Yup. Norris, Lewis, and Stone have reveled in taking shots at Bruce Lee for not competing in the game of tag known as point fighting. Yeah, some of the point fights of the 1960's resulted in broken noses and jaws, but the majority of them contained minimal contact to the face.

3) From all accounts I've heard, it seems like Bruce Lee was sort of a bully and a tough when it came to fighting. But he was also Bruce Lee.

Bruce Lee admitted that prior to learning Wing Chun at the age of 13, he was a "punk" who went looking for fights. Upon his return to the United States at the age of 18, he was far from being the kind of guy that you wouldn't want to mess with. As Paul Vunak once said, "Bruce was forced to modify his Wing Chun techniques due to the morphology of the individuals living in the United States." In other words, it is hard being the bully on the block when you're only 5'7" 145 pounds.

[Aikia]

Let's not be too hasty in devaluating the 'street fighting' potential of the karate legend Joe Lewis. I read an interview in which joe talks about getting out of the Marine Corps in '66 and going to Mexico. Joe was confronted by a number of Mexican tough guys at a bordello. None chose to tangle with the young Marine. Why? It's the aura of the street fighter. Lewis emits an aura of supreme confidence. Criminals, punks, street fighters 'prey' on those who are weak, vulnerable and accessible. Street fighters do not pick on martial arts champions, Mr. Americas etc.
Lewis has all the components that would make a street fighter envious. He could have taken his ability to the streets but he chose to fight in a sanctioned environment. In 1970 after two years of work with Bruce Lee Joe Lewis developed the sport of American kickboxing so that he could hurt his opponent and no one would stop him.
Because he found a 'safe' route to unleash his violent nature he looks down on those that do not follow suit.
What he said was correct...from his point of view.
Sure, go ahead and find fault in his comments. I did. but I also know that after 40 years as a champion no street fighters, not one, have taken a chance to tangle with the man of confidence. Even at age 65 you will find very few that would single him out of a crowd as being vulnerable. Lewis can and has walked any street he wanted.

[Wi-Stickboxer]

Not to be the Devil's advocate here,but Bruce Lee could have at least gone down to a boxing gym and sparred. Or sparred w/Thai fighters. He chose not to. Really,does it matter? What he left us as a legacy (crosstraining,realistic training,full contact sparring) is more important than if he got in the ring or not...

[Justthefacts]

Sparring And Street Fighting

Actually, one of the two sparring sessions that Bruce Lee had with Chuck Norris took place at a boxing gym in Los Angeles. In 1967, Bruce Lee began using full body gear to spar and Richard Bustillo witnessed this particular sparring match. Bustillo stated that Lee left Norris "red-faced" after this sparring session. In addition, Bruce would sometimes accompany Joe Lewis to a boxing gym and on one occasion, Joey Orbillo watched Bruce hitting the heavy bag and the speed bag. Orbillo was Joe Lewis' boxing coach and he was so impressed with Bruce Lee's boxing abilities, he told Bruce that he could make him the lightweight champion of the world. Joe Lewis is one of the greatest martial artists of the past 50 years, but the reaction to his statement in Black Belt magazine is the result of years of Joe stating that Bruce Lee "never proved himself." This includes his claim that "Bruce never sparred anyone, except for those guys who ran around sucking up to him." This claim is erroneous and Joe seemed taken aback by the aggressive rebuttals from Bruce Lee's students and other prominent martial artists.

[Aikia]

I went back and read the article and the following issue. Mr. Lewis says that a street fighter needs to test himself against a modern K-1 or MMA fighter. A writer from CA responds that Mr. Lewis, himself had not fought in either K-1 or MMA.
The point that Joe is making is that in his experience every time a 'streetfighter' got in the ring with a skilled opponent he lost. Witness, Kimbo Slice and tank Abbott; both accomplished street fighters unable to compete with the superior athletes.
The hard working athletes often develop a sort of arrogance. Bruce Lee was said to be very arrogant. They work so hard in the gym so that they have the odds in their favor.
Lewis speaks from the arrogance of being a superior athlete who has put in the time to armor plate both his skills and his body.
What Mr. Lewis says obviously doesn't apply to everyone. Every one can not reach the athletic peak of a Joe Lewis or a Bruce Lee.

[Justthefacts]

Contradictions

Aikia: The big problem that I have with Joe Lewis is his inability to keep his stories straight. For example, Joe has stated that point fighting was "a game of tag. How can you call that fighting." In other interviews, Joe has stated that since Bruce Lee didn't compete in point tournaments, he "never proved himself." Which is it, Joe? The sparring pot shot also ticked me off, so when I e-mailed Joe Lewis several years ago, I asked about these contradictions. Joe Lewis is usually a straight shooter, but his answers were all over the map. For example, when I pointed out that Bruce Lee sparred with point tournament fighter Louis Delgado and that Delgado stated in a 1969 Black Belt magazine interview that Lee was the toughest man he ever sparred against, Joe stated that "Louis wasn't a great fighter." Hmmm. So, when Joe was presented with an unassailable FACT, he changed the criteria of the debate.

In addition, Joe Lewis was beaten by Chuck Norris in 3 of their 4 point matches and Joe respects Norris as a martial artist. Guess who was the last fighter to beat Chuck Norris in a point tournament match? Yup, Louis Delgado. When I e-mailed Joe Lewis, the information regarding Bruce Lee's sparring sessions with Chuck Norris had not been divulged publicly, so I didn't have that information at my disposal. In terms of the K1/kickboxing/full contact arguments, Bruce Lee returned to Hong Kong in 1970. That same year, kickboxing was born in the United States when Joe Lewis defeated Greg Baines via 2nd round knockout. Bruce was 30 years old when he returned to Hong Kong, so he would have been late to the party if he decided to enter the full contact arena. Joe Lewis was only 26 years old when he started kickboxing. Bruce Lee was also the first martial artist to use full body sparring gear. From 1967-1970, Bruce sparred all-out with the likes of Dan Inosanto, Larry Hartsell, and Dan Lee.

[Aikia]

You are again correct in stating that Mr. Lewis seems to change his opinions. Perhaps as often as Paris Hilton changes dresses. He thinks so much of Bruce Lee that he becomes his private student for the better part of 1968 and 1969.The he says that Lee has no proven fight record. Joe is brutally honest in his opinions. Fighters with records tend to want to seperate themselves from 'fighters' without fight records.
I am pretty sure it is safe to say that Joe Lewis admired the skills and knowledge of Bruce Lee. Joe even says in one interview that he had basically quit point tournaments until Bruce Lee challenged him to become a student of jeet kune do. After training under bruce, Joe won 11 straight tournaments and gives full credit to Sifu Lee.
People often love Joe for his compliments to Bruce and hate him for the departing from the positive comments.

[Baki Hanma]

I have a lot of respect for the ring skills of Joe Lewis. He certainly moved Kickboxing to a higher level. However, his comments concerning street fighting in the July 2009 issue of Black Belt magazine really reveals his lack of understanding concerning this complex subject. He does write that he has never seen a street fight stating“I’ve witnessed many fights, but to date not one has taken place on the street.” While I am sure he means he has only seen brawls in side a building and not on the street, this still weakens his point concerning a subject he has not witnessed. While I am happy for him to have been spared seeing such violence, which might be due to him residing in a small town like Wilimington, NC, but those of use that have lived or live in large cities have not been so fortunate. Many of us have that dwell in the big city ( I grew up in D.C.) have witnessed or have been subject to the physical confrontations of road rage or have been followed out to a parking lot or gang violence.

A successful street fighter has to have a different set of skills and mental attitude than that of a ring fighter. This in no way detracts from the skills of a high level sports fighter and I have the utmost respect. However, in the street you don’t have a referee to break you up if you break a rule and of course there are no rules. You have to worry about weapons, which could even be just a bottle or a rock. I have known of one instance where a guy bit the nose off the guy taking him to the ground. Believe me that can change the game plan. This is “usually” not a concern in the ring, lol. I have been in both situations and I am sorry but they are not the same and I can go on and on with similar stories.

Also, his claim that you most likely will only encounter or those claiming to have street fighting skills have fought are “some drunks, a few kids and a couple of bums” also reveals his lack of knowledge of what really can happen on the streets of major urban areas. In this day and age you never know the level of skill you are going to have to deal with. I hope anyone reading this understands the difference between fighting a skilled opponent in the ring as opposed to dealing with a 280 lbs guy cranked up on pcp with some reasonable boxing and wrestling skills you just cut off in traffic and he is pulling you out of your car in a psychotic rage.

Having said all of that, I do understand where Lewis is coming from. I am sure he is sick of people claiming high level sport fighters don’t know how to protect themselves in the real world and that somehow street fighters are better fighters. It takes years to be able to compete at a world class level and that certainly deserves respect. I also would say that the last thing I want is to be on the receiving end of a full power right hook from someone like that, lol! I just feel that he went a bit too far in his defense of his art by down playing the skills needed to survive the streets. The fighter that has the skills to deal with all the possibilities you might encounter on the street deserves the same respect as the fighter that has the skills to compete in the ring. It really does no one any good to try and diminish either one.

I have nothing more to say except I completely agree with you, you literally have taken the words right out of my mouth!
I haven't had the chance to fight in a tournament which i hope to do one day, but all my experience and fights have actually be in street fights, I have a huge martial arts background and In the streets you kind of have to tell yourself "I'm going to bleed today!" because in most cases you will...

Today if ever a street fight starts out as a one on one, it usually always turns into a 2-7 on one, and even about 70% of these fights come with one of these guys having a weapon, be it a knife, or even a gun, and to tell the truth it may be more than 70% now....

sure some people can't fight worth shit, only feel strong with their friends but i can say from experience I've come across some guys who could fight pretty good...

I have much respect also for guys that fight in those tournaments, but a Street fighter deserves the respect also.....