JKD credentials

[fenwick99]

I know that this is warmed over ground, but there are so many people
claiming to be experts in JKD, including wing chun men who could not have known Lee, that there needs to be some standard of legitimacy.
IMHO only people who studied directly with Lee should call what they teach
"Jeet Kune Do." 2nd and 3rd generation students should use another name
like jkdc, combat muay thai, american kung fu, or some such.
Lee made a huge mistake in coining the term in the first place, and he made an even bigger mistake by not copyrighting the term in the late 1960s.
There is perhaps one category of "gray area" here- people who did not know Lee but who were students of Lee students when Lee was alive.
Chris Kent (Knudds?) was certified by Inosanto. On the other hand, Gary Dill was specifically forbidden by Jimmy Lee from teaching JKD. sifu Cowles was denied a certificate and told not to teach jkd by Lee himself, so he called his art Wu Wei Quan or something. DeMIle was part of the Seattle group, but called his art 'wing chun do." THat is legit. Now a student of Leo Fong actually has belt ranks at his school- a blue belt in Jeet Kune Do.?????
That is blashphemy.

[Rick Tomas]

Blue belt, lol? Cant believe how many dont seem to even read what Bruce Lee wrote about his art!

[Aikia]

Let's face it Bruce Lee opened the door when he taught JKD his way to his students and then wrote about JKD having no way and something to the tune of 'my JKD is not your JKD".
People have interpreted that somany ways. The new book by Tim Tackett and the new book by Teri Tom both focus on the original version of JKD that Bruce taught to his students when he was alive. I wouldn't worry about all the new versions.

[Justthefacts]

Bruce Lee's Art

Aikia: Teri Tom's new book does not focus on original JKD. To put it mildly, Tom's JKD books are a mess. She is a sloppy researcher and her thesis is laughable. Tom has been attempting to argue that Bruce Lee discarded Wing Chun from post-1967 JKD and that what Bruce Lee taught Ted Wong in PRIVATE training sessions is "real JKD." It's important to remember that Ted Wong was not a student at the Seattle, Oakland, or Chinatown schools. In essence, Teri Tom is ignoring the totality of JKD and thumbing her nose at documented fact. Several examples.

1) In 1968, Bruce Lee was teaching chi sao to both Chuck Norris and Mike Stone.

2) In 1969, Bruce Lee was teaching chi sao to James Coburn.

3) In 1973, Bruce Lee told Wing Chun brother Hawkins Cheung that the foundation of JKD was "Pak Sao and hip."

4) In 1973, Bob Wall witnessed a fight between Bruce Lee and an extra on the set of Enter the Dragon. Wall clearly describes Bruce using a lop sao and a knee trap to demolish his opponent.

5) In several interviews, Dan Inosanto has stated that Wing Chun encompasses 50 percent of JKD.

6) Bruce Lee NEVER abandoned the Wing Chun principles which formed the foundation of JKD. These principles included economy of motion, centerline theory, and simplicity.

7) From 1968-1969, Joe Lewis trained with Bruce Lee and he stated that Bruce Lee was "big on sticky hand techniques."

8) From 1967-1970, Bob Bremer had private training sessions with Bruce Lee on Sundays, and he stated that what Bruce was teaching him contained "alot of Wing Chun stuff."

In terms of who is qualified to teach JKD and who is not, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to weed out the riff raff.

Seattle Era: Patrick Strong is the only Seattle Era student to embrace JKD techniques into his own personal fighting method. Sifu Strong is the real deal.

Oakland Era: In terms of the students who trained with Bruce Lee, I don't think that any of them are unqualified to teach JKD. Gary Dill NEVER trained with Bruce Lee and Howard Williams no longer teaches JKD. Say what you want about Leo Fong, but it was Sifu Fong who convinced Bruce Lee to incorporate Boxing techniques into his fighting method.

L.A./Chinatown Era: Bob Bremer's influence on the Wednesday Night Group has resulted in the WNG being one of the most respected JKD organizations in the world. Sifu's Steve Golden and Jerry Poteet are qualified JKD instructors. Sifu Dan Inosanto continues to teach JKD concepts and Sifu Ted Wong teaches the lessons he learned from Bruce Lee during their private training sessions.

[Aikia]

You obviously have an opinion and you have stated it. Of course there are many who feel that wing chun was in fact the art Bruce Lee sought to be free from. Teri tom is a trained researcher. I have read her book and agree that jeet kune do was for the most part a few kicks and a few strikes that could be performed without limitations, using no 'fixed' way as the way. Bruce Lee felt that free style sparring with protection and all out combat was the highest expression of any martial art. JKD is perfectly suited for that type of alive, spontaneous and unrehearsed environment.
Wing chun represents a fixed style with limitations and routines. Chi sao is a routine, a give and take procedure in which both parties are expected to provide a complimentary response. I have reason to agree with the author in that Bruce Lee sought freedom from the classical style including wing chun.
However, I acknowledge that at its foundation wing chun can be said to be a base art. This does not imply that one should study wing chung to learn JKD.

[Wi Kali Group]

Ok I have T. Tom's first book. I've skimmed it not read it. But it looked interesting enough to buy. What Bruce Lee taught as I've heard (wasn't present myself to young) went through three phases.
1. It started out as modified wing chun
2. Added Boxing/Kickboxing
3. Started to add grappling

Please no flaming if I got the order wrong or made technical errors. I'm more interested in the general sense of it.

If you get the Dan Inosanto collection off his web site he talks about this. He doesn't mention anyone by name. He talks about some of Bruce's students feeling you only need what bruce taught them in the 60's. Dan talks about the original Jun Fan is still valid and useful.

But his problem with the people teaching the original JKD/Jun Fan is they (in Dan's not so humble opinion as the only one Bruce felt qualified to teach JKD) don't know the whole system. They only know the little bit Bruce taught them.

He talks in the series about how Bruce would explore a person's strong areas. If you were a good wrestler he would work more on that. So in Ted Wong's case (I've heard him referred to as Bruce's sparring partner) he probably worked more on the Jun Fan kickboxing. So when Ted students talk about how Bruce didn't do this or that anymore. All we can gleam from this Bruce didn't do it with Ted. Maybe Ted was just no good at it. And Bruce worked on his strength's.

The main problem with the students of Bruce's original students. Is they learned the mental crutch's of their instructors. Since they didn't do it with Bruce or it didn't work for them it's useless. You can't hardly blame them we have a young generation doing it all over again.

[Wi Kali Group]

Hey on certification. Has anyone been certified by Sifu Vunak. I've been thinking about it. Any info would be helpful. After you train how long does it take to get a certification mailed to you.

[Wi-Stickboxer]

Vu Certs...

Hey on certification. Has anyone been certified by Sifu Vunak. I've been thinking about it. Any info would be helpful. After you train how long does it take to get a certification mailed to you.

PM me,my Siu's a Full under Vu and lives right here in Wi. I am planning on going out for an IPT in March(ish). Haven't called Uncle Vu yet though...

[Justthefacts]

Three Core Arts, Not Two

Aikia: A few thoughts...

"You obviously have an opinion and you have stated it."

If I wanted to post my OPINION on Teri Tom's JKD books, I would have pointed out that in the photographs, her Bai Jong stance is incorrect and her technique is sloppy (e.g., weight distribution/lunging) when throwing the lead hand strike. I posted documented FACT demonstrating that Wing Chun was still a HUGE part of JKD.

"Of course there are many who feel that wing chun was in fact the art Bruce Lee sought to be free from."

Many? If by many, you mean those who adhere to the teachings of Ted Wong, then you are correct. Ted Wong, however, is the ONLY Bruce Lee student who has discarded Wing Chun from JKD. Patrick Strong and ALL of the Oakland and L.A./Chinatown students still teach Wing Chun techniques.

"Teri tom is a trained researcher."

In terms of her books on JKD, she certainly doesn't exhibit any of those research skills. In her book on the straight lead, you can't even trust her eyesight. For example, on page 142, Tom states...

"Bruce makes a statement about traditional styles in his fight scene with Bob Wall in Enter the Dragon. The two square off in a traditional position with their forearms touching. But instead of engaging in a lot of blocking and unnecessary movement, what does Bruce do? BAM! He throws a straight lead and whacks Bob-twice. Why waste time when you can launch the most direct attack? Bruce is proving that he can beat the trappers at their own game without having to actually engage in trapping."

In that film sequence, Bruce Lee clearly uses a pak sao in conjunction with a forehand strike not once, but twice. If Tom can't even see the pak sao, what does that say about her ability to decipher data?

"I have read her book and agree that jeet kune do was for the most part a few kicks and a few strikes that could be performed without limitations, using no 'fixed' way as the way."

One would have to assume that the "few kicks and a few strikes" would be a reference to Bruce Lee's favorite techniques. According to anyone who knew or trained with Bruce Lee, his favorite techniques were the finger jab, the straight blast, and the side kick. The finger jab and the straight blast are Wing Chun techniques and the side kick is neither a Boxing nor a Fencing technique.

"Wing chun represents a fixed style with limitations and routines. Chi sao is a routine, a give and take procedure in which both parties are expected to provide a complimentary response."

The same could be said of Boxing and Fencing. What made Bruce Lee a genius was his ability to take the functional elements of Wing Chun, Boxing, and Fencing and make it work in the streets. Chi sao is an energy or sensitivity drill and Bruce Lee's chi sao cannot be categorized as routine. Dan Inosanto once told an interviewer that "chi sao looks like a game, but it is a tough game to play." Can hitting the heavy bag or speed bag in Boxing be routine? Of course, but good boxers create drills that take away the routine aspects of hitting the bag. You should ask Sifu Steve Golden or Sifu Patrick Strong if they agree with your stance on chi sao.

"However, I acknowledge that at its foundation wing chun can be said to be a base art. This does not imply that one should study wing chung to learn JKD."

Everyone has to find their own truth, but by ignoring 50 percent of the art, you're not learning JKD. In essence, you're learning Ted Wong's JKD, not Bruce Lee's JKD. The problem I have is that the Ted Wong camp doesn't own up to their own personal liberation. Once the Wong camp defined "real JKD" as being Wong's private training sessions with Bruce Lee, they placed themselves on a JKD island.

[Aikia]

Not going to disagree about the Tom photos. The photos rerally don't do justice to the information provided. It is logical that if a person favors the concepts approach they will pan the book. those that favor the original JKD methods will like the book.
I thought the book gave a fresh spin on the JKD controversy. I particularly agree with her assessment that JKd is more about a few skills used many ways than the post Bruce Lee innovation of the JKD concepts method.

[Justthefacts]

Honestly Expressing Yourself

"Not going to disagree about the Tom photos. The photos rerally don't do justice to the information provided."

With the exception of her depiction of the Bai Jong stance, that certainly could be the case.

"It is logical that if a person favors the concepts approach they will pan the book."

I do not want to speak for them, but apparantly non-concepts instructors are not happy with Teri Tom's presentation of so-called "original JKD." If you go by a strict timeline, Bruce Lee coined the term JKD in 1966. He added Boxing techniques to his fighting method in 1964, and over the course of the next 3 years, he studied the functional applications of Fencing techniques. Bruce Lee began training Ted Wong in 1967, a full year after Bruce began calling his art JKD. One could argue that "original JKD" consisted of the latter portions of the Oakland curriculum and the curriculum taught at the Chinatown School. Dan Inosanto taught 90 percent of the classes at the Chinatown school and he began training with Bruce Lee 3 years prior to Wong meeting Bruce, so if anyone knows what "original JKD" is, it's Dan Inosanto. Sifu Inosanto has been consistent in his presentation of what "original JKD" is and it does not jibe with Ted Wong's version of JKD. If one looks at the TOTALITY of the evidence, the most salient conclusion is that "original JKD" consists of...

50 percent Wing Chun

30 percent Fencing

20 percent Boxing

Aikia, I think it's great that you have chosen your own path to personal enlightenment, but I would be careful about picking a singular approach to Bruce Lee's art and calling it "real JKD."

[Aikia]

Interesting input. I don't have favorite approach to JKD.
When Mr. Inosanto created the JKD concepts approach to training in the late 1970's some have said it was because he promised Bruce that he would not teach JKD to the masses.
Over the years guro Dan just became identified with his own valid interpretation of an evolved JKD, which he called the JKDC.
Ted Wong, Jerry Poteet and other OBLS seemed to stick to the instruction that Bruce had taught them. Jeet kune do was first identified in 1967 and became the name of the art Bruce taught in July of 1967.
As you know Bruce closed his schools in January 1970 and disbanned the teaching of JKD. Dan Inosanto requested permission to continue teaching a small group of around 6 OBLS students in his back yard. Bruce made it clear to Dan that it was to be a small group only and futher let Dan know that he would be very disappointed if Dan expanded.

[Kvntu]

Why did Bruce Lee ask Dan Inosanto to disband the JKD School? In his interview with Daniel Lee, Bruce was quoted as saying “That’s why I’ve disbanded all the schools of Jeet Kune Do; because it is very easy for a member to come in and take the agenda as “the truth” and the schedule as “the Way,” you know what I mean?” So it would seem Bruce was unhappy with the students in his school and their lack of understanding of JKD. Now some of these very students and their students are claiming to teach the truth and reality of Bruce Lee and offer to protect us from the misguided Dan Inosanto? Even though Sifu Dan was the only one Bruce trusted and certified to teach JKD? Thanks Teri Tom, but no thanks!

[Justthefacts]

Actions VS Words

Bruce Lee was 50 years ahead of his time in both conceptual and practical applications of the martial arts. Unfortunately, Bruce was also the King of Contradiction when it came to his art. In some letters/articles, he called JKD a style. In other letters/articles, he stated that JKD was not a system or a method. In 1970, Bruce Lee asks Dan Inosanto to close down the Chinatown school and one of the reasons given by Bruce, was that "Danny has been restless." Bruce Lee thought that Dan Inosanto was going to take his art in a different direction. At the same time, Bruce was attempting to cajole tournament fighter Steve Sanders into opening a JKD school in Los Angeles. While a terrific martial artist, Sanders had no prior experience teaching JKD, yet Bruce was attempting to groom him as Dan Inosanto's replacement. Sanders turned down Bruce Lee's offer, but Bruce did give him a cameo in Enter the Dragon.

In addition, Bruce was not being completely honest with Dan Lee because he never told James Lee or Taky Kimura to close down their schools. Sifu James DeMile said it best when he stated that people need to stop focusing on what Bruce Lee said and concentrate on what he did. Demile even provided an example which involved looking at the techniques that Bruce Lee used in street fights and/or sparring matches instead of quoting fighting techniques from the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

[Aikia]

You seem well informed. I know this is a JKD forum but its unfair to claim that Bruce was "50" years ahead of the game. Just 20 years after Bruce died the UFC helped establish a new paradigm for martial artists. Interestingly that same year JKD received its biggest shot in the arm since Lee's death. "The Dragon" attracted new interest in BL and JKD. That same year, 1993 the "original" JKD camps began to flourish and magazines doubled their interest in JKD by promoting both the JKDC and the OJKD. MMA has now surpassed the interest once given to BL and JKD.
A lot can happen in 50 years. Would Bruce have known how to deal with a MMA athlete?