How effective is the RAT program REALLY?

[Ryu]

Haha I knew that title would get you in here.

Hi guys, well I wanted actually to ask for some experiences from people. I train headbutts, knees, and elbows very much along with my other arts like judo and BJJ. But in the fights I have had, I have never really needed to headbutt someone in the face, or knee their teeth out. The fights I have been in I was able to take it to the ground and end it there.
So I guess my question for you guys is how many people have really been in a fight where they grabbed the back of the guys neck and went through Vunak's system? Did it work well? Or was it less than you expected? I spar it obviously, but haven't used it in the fights I have had. (If I did, to me, it would be accessive force, so I went with my judo skills)

But does anyone have experience with it? My skills with it are pretty good I think...enough for Paul to award me an instructorship some years ago, so who has used it in a real altercation? I would hate to hurt someone badly....but I am curious to hear whether it is really as viscious and effective as it seems?

Take care,
Ryu

[jeyel]

Good question!

I wld also like to add one...What wld be a good counter tactic to the RAT?

[aseepish]

Counter to RAT

If we're talking about RAT as being:

1. Inflict pain (land a good shot, or pull off a destruction)
2. Borrow that instant of pain to lanch the straight blast and get the neck
3. Headbutt, knee, elbow until the cows come home

I think the best counter would be to avoid step one. Don't get hit (duh!) and use a lof of fakes to avoid being "destroyed." RAT him before he RATs you.

-T

[4 Ranges]

Hey Ryu

Hey Ryu,

interestingly, I had a friend recently get into a bar fight, and ended the whole thing after the straight blast. I guess the whole progression is really a "just in case" procedure. Some guys I've heard of ended the whole thing with just a destruct! But, I guess, the HKE is for those stubborn guys who just won't take a straightblast or destruct for an answer.

Hope you're well.

[MikeJKD]

Practical Experience

Ryu,
When I was living with Paul, my whole skill set turned into what he was then calling the "Vu Scale." Intercept or destroy the attacking tool, blast, HKE and thumb the eyes. I assisted with just about every lesson he taught in Califirnia for two straight years, and consequently had a LOT of repititions in on the things you're talking about. I've used it on several occasions, and to great effect. Here are a couple of incidents:

1.) Once, about a month after moving to LA, I got assaulted by two guys while I was jogging. They were throwing bottles at me from their car, and I turned around all hotheaded and screamed at them to stop the car and get out, which they did. I was tired from running and was really nervous about fighting two guys with no weapons or backup, so when the first guy got close enough, I just started covering up, and eventually got him by the neck. I remember thinking "Headbutt, then elbow a few times, and fire the knee..." But when I landed the headbutt and came up for my elbow, he had already fallen down. Out cold. I saw the other guy coming around the front of the car, but he wasn't looking like he was going to swing, so I hit him a few times and ran like a bitch. I jumped a wall that led into a neighborhood, and eventually found my way home, but I can tell you that's the best example I've seen. The next day, I had a pretty good mouse under one eye (which was wierd, cuz I didn't remember getting hit...) but my head was fine.
2.) Working as a bouncer, we sometimes used to hang out at the bar on off nights just to watch each others' back. In one instance, a guy I worked with named Greg had started a lot of friction with several patrons (he was a dick) and it had come back to bite him. Four guys had him partially surrounded, and before we could get there, one guy swung at him. Two of us rushed over, trying to break it up, and I covered up and went into the mix trying to pull Greg out. Well, I'd like to say this happened through disciplined skill and saavy, but it was pure luck. I had my hands high, coveing my head, and one of the antagonists punched and caught the tip of my elbow. I actually felt his fist go soft. Whether it broke or just opened up, I'm not sure, but he knew it was hurt and pulled back. Instinctively, I ran forward with a blast and hit him probably three or four times before I stumbled, and he fell backward. I didn't get his neck, but we all had room to move, and the other bouncers got there and threw everyone (including Greg) outside. In that respect, I guess Paul's system is just about the most effective I've seen.

Additionally, we had a fight a few months back at the club I worked at most recently, and we ended up throwing 26 people out! There were only 6 bouncers, and more fights all in one little area than we knew what to do with. 26 on 6 is bad odds. Of the six of us, I was the only one that didn't get tagged hard, and that didn't end up on the ground, and I was in the center of the fight for nearly 3 minutes! That's forever in a mass attack!! But, the point is that Paul's stuff is the singular only reason why I didn't end up grappling or getting nailed. So rest assured that if you put in the time with him, you'll be able to depend 100% on what he teaches.

Bahala Na,
Mike

[jeyel]

MikeJKD

That sounded really cool. I really must go and drill the RAT now!

[NHBMARK1]

Drill the rat???
Are we still talkin' martial arts here?

[vedder]

Rat System

I think what we have to understand is that the real bread and butter of Pauls system is in the attribute development. I think the Rat system is neither good nor bad. It just depends on the person using it. Its like bjj, the art can be beaten or can win but the persons skill level and experience is what is really going to win the fight. I mean lets be honest streetfighters have the same kind of access to the training that we all have. So the dedication and training that you put forth is what will really set you apart. The one great thing about Pauls system whether its the Rat or his JKD system of streetfighting is that he trains for all situations and exposes the student to everything that may be encountered for the street. Not many arts can claim that including the great grappling arts.

[aseepish]

Vedder: Well said!

I think the drills that I learned while training at a PFS club have helped me tremendously, especially the one where you:

1: spar lightly at long range (Vu scale)
2: clinch drill (throw knees, dumog and Muay Thai stuff)
3: go to the ground
4: stand up and spar again, or clinch, or go back to the ground,
as ordered by the instructor.

This is also on one of Vu's attribute tapes (I forget which one, I'm a LOOOONG way away from my tape collection).

-T.

[vedder]

The drills you mentioned happen to be my favorite as well. It was on Attributes 5 I believe. And he mentions quite frequently that there are just so many grapplers out there these days. It is just not feasable to think that you can train and be be better then the majority of other grapplers out there. Paul not only gives you a game plan but an awareness of what kinds of things to expect and a general rule on how to deal with them. I myself know that his stuff is worth the time spent working on it. I am a former Bjj student under a great instructor but my focus has always been street fighting so to continue and pursue a black belt in bjj only serves the purpose of attaining some kind of rank in a respected art or for the sake of the sport. The truth is a true jkd man seeks to train in a specific art only to realize and determine what that art seeks to accomplish and how they go about accomplishing it. You can find this out long before you reach Black belt level in BJJ. Now that doesn't mean I cannnot get smoked on the ground by a ground fighter it just means that I have gained enough of an understanding that I have absorbed what is useful from it and discarded what is useless.

[jeyel]

NHBMark1 - LOL!!

Aseepish - the tapes are Attributes III (Vu scale) and also IV (sparring in all ranges).