Hock vs Richardson vs Vunak

[Groin Grab]

I was wondering peoples opion on Hock Hockiem. The reason I am asking about this is because I have studied some of his material. What I liked about it was from what I studied it was total no-nonsense information for life threating situations. I also like the military aspects that he brought into the training. What I didn't like was that Hock didn't appear to be that coordinated techniqually. I've also heard others say his skill level isn't that good and if you want to learn stick and knife fighting there are many other instructors out there much better than him. I've also heard he is a shady character not to get involved with. But I want to know what other people have to say about his trainig. Has any one trained with him and do you think it is worth it? I truely would like to know because I am thinking about purchasing a large amount of his material and begin working toward testing in his organization. If there are better instructors and pesonel I should seek training under I would like save my time and money. I have saved up a small chunk of money to invest in my training and I am currently trying to decide where spend it. Right now I am think about 1. Purchasing all Hocks Material and attending some of his seminars hopefully to test. 2. Join Burt Richardsons JKD Unlimited attending some of his seminars and hopefully test. 3. Traveling to the Philippines around late december early January to try and find and train with a master over there that I could go back and visit. 4. I've thought a lot about training with Vunak but I would rather train with Richardson. I have been saving my money because I sincerly want to train with the best guys in the world. Does any one have any advice.

[Maxximus]

I think it depends on what you're looking for...

If you want a streamlined, no nonsense approach to martial arts trianing geared more or less exclusively to making you a functional streetfighter in a short period of time, then try out Vunak's method. There are many great teachers out there nowadays, but I'd imagine that Vunak would be able to offer you certain incite and ideas towards the realities of a streetfight that most others do not pay attention to. If on the other hand you want to practice for the art just as much as for developing fighting skills...and an unorthodox but very realistic method of JKD training that stresses true functionality and skill in all ranges appeals to you, then something like JKD Unlimited or Straight Blast Gym would be ideal. Personally, if time and money permitted, I would join JKD Unlimited and develop my base there, but I'd also check out some Paul Vunak PFS seminars as well. I'd personally love the chance to learn from Vunak, but I couldn't possibly afford the training course at this time and I also don't know of any good PFS clubs in my area that I could crosstrain in. As for the first guy you mentioned, I don't know who he is so I can't really say anything on that.

[Groin Grab]

Thanks for the reply. I have almost all of Vunak's tapes and the material is great. You can check out Hocks stuff and www.hockscqc.com My primary goals are to learn the most realistic brand of self-defenese I can find while still being able to learn some of the art and culuture that comes with the various martial arts the system draws from.

[Harley]

Hock is waste of time

Hello Sir,
good to see your continueing to search and grow. that's the important thing. but if i may i know a little about Hock.
I am an instructor under the late Terry Gibson(amoung others) where i met Hock.
He used to train under Terry, big guy, tall. i remember when he went to train in the phillipines for a two week camp. He came back certified. his skill was nothing to brag about and certainly not the standard that Terry held his instructors too. So now being certified he had no further use in Terry and discontinued to train with him. It was at this time that Hock began creating his organization that he has now. his skill level was never what we considered high. Later Hock said some very disrespectful things reguarding Terry and Guro Inosanto. Many people attempt to raise their own status in the arts by trying to lower the image or damage the reputation of those prominent people already established. this and the fact that he was never really that good lead me to say you should probably stay away from Hock.
As for Burt, he comes highly recommended by everyone, i have some friends, training partners, and students who are certified under Vu, most are happy with him and like his stuff. I recommend you find the instructor you like, who will help you achieve your goals, and stick with him. esablish a base with one good instructor and branch out from there.
other instructors you might consider are:
Matt thornton, Greg Nelson, Rick Faye, Tuhon Chris Sayoc, and Grand Master Tony Somera.
good luck and keep searching
harley

[Paul Sharp]

It seems you are looking towards some form of certification based on your use of the word "test".

Vu gives certificates as does Burt, if that is what you are looking for. The process varies but that is something you can clear up once you decide and make contact with your instructor of choice.

Harley covered the Hock thing pretty well.

There are no certifications to be had from the SBG so if you are looking for paper that is not the place for you.

You can contact Burt through his JKD Unlimited web site and you can contact Vu through his PFS website or on the PFS forum.

A key issue you didn't mention is your current skill level. If you show up at Vu's or Burt's in hopes of acheiving some form of certification you should probably have a good grasp of the material they teach and the ability to apply this material. Doing your homework is half the battle. Show up in the best possible shape, with a solid working knowledge of the basics and a teachable/coachable attitude and see where it takes you.

-Paul Sharp

[Groin Grab]

Yea I guess your right I am looking for an instuctor to train under that I can get a certificate or something from that says I learned this stuff to a level of proficancy. I'm not totally big on certificates but I want people to take me more serious and I want to prove that I can train with the best guys and pass thier testest. Thanks for the reply about Hock my intention wasn't to dig up trash on the guy or anything I just sincerly wanted to know what his rap was and if I should pursue instruction from him. Thanks for giving me an honest answer. Thanks for the recommendations as well. I've been training in BJJ for three years and JKD for 5 before I've been training in BJJ and JKD at the same time, I did Tang Soo Do for 13 years before I started JKD and BJJ but I no longer train in that.

[filippo]

hi guys

just to remember the JKD UNLIMITED philosophy

"“Knowledge is not power, the ability to apply knowledge is power”

[filippo]

hi guys

just to remember the JKD UNLIMITED philosophy:

"Knowledge is not power, the ability to apply knowledge is power”
and
"If you want to learn how to fight, you have to practise fighting against someone who is fighting back”

by Sifu Burton

[Call Me Al]

I believe a lot of good points were made. Being in the midwest it is sometimes very difficult to get instructors of the quality discussed here to the area and there is a lot of travel involved to get instruction.

One of the things that helped me the most was going to the seminars of the people I have been interested in training with and watching them teach. Each person instructs differently. The way they teach on a video may be different from the way they teach in real life. A person has several attempts on video to get the technique right and the different camera angles may help their "skill level." In some cases, their true personality does not come out.

I almost went to one of Hock's seminars this year in the Kansas City Area and changed my mind for several reasons. One I own both his books and was a little disappointed in the fact someof the information is reprinted in several sections og the book, the editing was not as solid, I had not heard anyone in the area talking about it and Guro Inosanto's seminar in Tulsa was the next weekend (And he is great I always learn something new everytime I attend even when old material).

When you go to the seminars you can see the technique up close and personal. You can ask the instructor questions and evaluate their response (i.e. do they know what they are talking about or are they following a curriculm someone showed them and they do not know the context of the technique and where it may be effective). Listen to what the person is saying and how they are saying it. Do they understand the material, do they enjoy what they are doing, are they giving lip service to get a quick buck because they took a four hour course that says they can instruct this information.

To preface the next comment I want to say there are a lot of Skilled defensive tactics instructors and police instructors who can pull off all the techniques they are shown and be able to explain them to the the troops. I have seen many who go to a day long or even week long school, become certified as an instructor and never continue to work on those skills to improve on or understand the technique. The next time you see these guys they are "experts" and it is one more thing they have added to their resume' they talk about or put on the wall. I personally went to a 40 hour bomb crime scene investigation school which covered how to make bombs and the mechanisms involved. I haveit on my resume' but I am not going to tell everyone I am a bomb tech and offer to disarm a bomb. I got enough information to investigate the scene and get a working understanding of the elements involved.

Of the people I enjoyed and received a lot of information from I have returned or I can say 100% I will be returning.

I would agree with Harley on his suggestion of checking out the intructors he listed. I have personally been going to Guro Inosanto's seminars in Tulsa and St. Louis since 1996 and make it a point to go when he is close and the funds are available. I just went to Master Tony Somera's Seminar in Kansas and he was great on all levels and I am currently applying for acceptance in his affiliate program.

I personally would like to go to Burton Richardson's, Erik Paulson, Rick Faye's and Chris Sayoc's seminars in the future (Harley I still have not gotten a membership to the Sayoc group) because I have done Like you and asked around to people who have gone and enjoyed the seminars.

Sometimes you have to take a chance and go for it, but I think it is important to get as much information as possible so you can take an informed chance because you have saved a lot of money and it is an investment in both money and training time.

[RobGoldman67]

Demi Barbito - Training/Certification

I like what Demi is doing at his place. He has a huge scope of training and he does not give out certs like water. I know for a fact that his certs are totally respected. It appears that it takes about a year or so between certs, that's what I've seen (maybe more maybe less). One guy called his place the post graduate school for serious martial artists. He has people coming in from all over the country. He even has people coming in from other countries now.
You should check out what he's doing.

https://www.demibarbito.com

Rob

[pcarney]

Wow! I'm suprised by all the negative posts against Hock! I have trained with him- having taken a seminar a few years ago in arnis. I have to say I thought it was good stuff! I couldn't compare him against Richardson and Vunak. I also found him to be a nice guy, and very down to earth. I don't know him well enough to 'defend' him, but I've always thought myself a good judge of character.

I do want to mention my teacher saying Hock was doing stuff with 'the militia'. I kinda snickered and didn't press for more information at the time..

[szorn]

Re: Hock vs Richardson vs Vunak

Originally posted by Groin Grab
[B] What I didn't like was that Hock didn't appear to be that coordinated techniqually.

You have to remember that these are "instructional" videos. Hock isn't trying to impress people with his physical prowess.

I've also heard others say his skill level isn't that good and if you want to learn stick and knife fighting there are many other instructors out there much better than him.

Hock teaches combat survival, not art. If you were expecting some fancy stick work then yes, you would be disappointed. You have to remember that Hock doesn't teach Filipino Martial Arts or JKD, he teaches "reality" self defense using tactics and strategies from quite a few styles and systems.

I've also heard he is a shady character not to get involved with.

The only thing "shady" would be your source for information. Hock is an excellent instructor and an all-around great guy. If you just took the time to attend a seminar you would see what kind of man Hock is.

But I want to know what other people have to say about his trainig. Has any one trained with him and do you think it is worth it?

I have trained with Hock for a while. It doesn't make me an expert on the man or his material but I can give you some insight. If you are looking for JKD or Filipino Martial Arts than you may not be interested in Hock's material. However, if you want reality based self defense that is not confined to any one style or system then I would highly recommend Hock's material. I would also highly recommend Hock's seminars. You need to ask yourself what it is your are looking for and then choose your path accordingly. Let me finish with a few suggestions. 1) If you are interested in learning about someone I recommend going to the source. 2) Don't believe everything you hear, check it out for yourself. 3) I recommend that you post questions like this on a more ecclectic forum as opposed to a JKD based forum, you may get more enlightend answers that way.

Steve

[szorn]

Re: Hock is waste of time

Originally posted by Harley
Hello Sir,
good to see your continueing to search and grow. that's the important thing. but if i may i know a little about Hock.
I am an instructor under the late Terry Gibson(amoung others) where i met Hock.
He used to train under Terry, big guy, tall. i remember when he went to train in the phillipines for a two week camp. He came back certified. his skill was nothing to brag about and certainly not the standard that Terry held his instructors too.

Actually, Hock trained with Ernesto for a number of years and attended atleast 2, possibly more, summer camps. Ernesto eventually awarded him his 3rd black and the title of guro which clearly speaks for his skill.

So now being certified he had no further use in Terry and discontinued to train with him. It was at this time that Hock began creating his organization that he has now. his skill level was never what we considered high.

Again, I think that his resume speaks for itsself. I should also point out that there is a difference between skill in the arts and skill in combat.

Later Hock said some very disrespectful things reguarding Terry and Guro Inosanto. Many people attempt to raise their own status in the arts by trying to lower the image or damage the reputation of those prominent people already established. this and the fact that he was never really that good lead me to say you should probably stay away from Hock.

I have trained with Hock for awhile and have never heard him say bad things about Terry or Dan. Although , I am aware that there was some bad blood, business-wise, between Terry, you, and Hock that doesn't make Hock a bad person or a bad instructor.

Steve

[Groin Grab]

Steve thanks for your reply. It's good to hear another point of view. That's why I posted this thread in the first place was to get a general idea of how people felt about these instuctors and if I'm going to invest a large chunk of cash into some instruction I want to make sure it's going to be worth it.
I asked if Hock was a shady because I've read postest in the past that say he's done some bad buisness. True, thats just rumors and stuff though so yea your right it's shadey information but this isn't a friend of mine went up to a semenar of his in LA to be a sparring partner for a guy we know who was suppose to test for his black belt or level 10 in the hand to hand combatives he was told to try and bring at least three guys to fight with, any way when he got up there Hock showed up for the seminar late and then said he didn't have time to test the guy for his black belt. This was a test this guy scheduled six months in advance and my friend went out of his way to go up to LA to be one of the fighters or attackers for it. Since Hawk cancelled the thing my friend went up there for nothing and was told to go home so he did luckly the guy who was testing for his level 10 combatives was able to by the end of the seminar talk Hawk into letting him take the test any way. That actually happened. I asked the question about Hawk being a shady character to see if that was just a bad day for Hawk and possibly a one time thing I should look beyond or if other stuff like that occured with this guy regularly.
You gave me three recommendations they were good. 1) If you are interested in learning about someone I recommend going to the source." Good advice, I have been to Hawks web sight I've seen some of his hand to hand tapes, I have his enceyclpida of knife fighting volume II and I've read one issue of his Close Quarters Combat Magazine. I've also read the resume and all the endorsements on his web sight. Like I said before I liked the stuff, the information in his book and magazine I thought was good and I liked his realistic approach to training and the military aspects he as brought into his system. The only think I haven't done is fork out a bunch of cash to go to one of his seminars or buy a bunch of his tapes and I don't want to committ to it any further until I know for sure he's the guy for me to train with. 2) "Don't believe everything you hear, check it out for yourself." Alright 3) "I recommend that you post questions like this on a more ecclectic forum as opposed to a JKD based forum, you may get more enlightend answers that way." Alright, first why would a JKD based forum oppose or give unenlighted answers concerning Hawks system? Second what would be some better forums to post these questions on? like I said allthough it may seem like it I'm really not trying to dig up trash I just want to know whats up before I go investing a big chunck of money on something.

[AWSolis]

Woof!

My .02......with the experiences I have had....I would research Paul Vunak's system. And lets see....how should I put it....I was once a part of JKD Unlimited...I am no longer. This experience was one of the biggest disappointments of my martial arts life, and it almost shut down my school.

I would also recommend Ron Balicki....sincere, honest, and tells it like it is. www.ronbalicki.com

Woof!
Alvis W. Solis