Hock vs Richardson vs Vunak

[thekuntawman]

groin grab i dont want to say the wrong thing and offend anybody, but i have a couple things i would like to add to this.
1. when you say you want to train with the "best in the world", how do you decide who is the best in the world? do you test his fighting skill yourself? do you watch him fight with other people? do you take the word of ads in the magazine? or do you take the word of other people who took somebody else words for it?

2. this i am very serious about. DONT trust anybody who spent five years studying something, then he created his own system, only to later say that that whole system that he study and puts the certificates out for everybody to see, that these systems are no good, or not good for combat.

3. dont listen to "combat experts" who hide behind realism. there is no subsitute for REAL streetfighting. yes sparring is not real like on the street, but unless that person is training you on the street against non-martial arts thugs, they are not realistic too.

4. testing is not important for respect. its only a form of income for the teacher. unless you want to be a teacher to. but to have pride in saying that you made it through somebody "test" is not the combat or martial way. certificates mean nothing, if you are interested in fighting. who ever seen remy presas certificate? how about leo gaje certificate? how about angel cabales certificate? or bruce lee's? but i bet you respect all these men. if its certification you want, save your money and go for it. you will get certified by any of these guys you mention, even if you never learn to fight. but if its fighting you want dont limit yourself only to guys who teach seminars and sell videos.

5. dont get sold by leo/military stuff. cops shoot, they dont fight with there hands unless theres a group of them. military use guns or missles. all those guys you see who decorate his ads with promise of special forces and swat and all that stuff, check what they know. i bet its silat, eskrima, jkd, and kickboxing (maybe jujitsu also). the military and police words are for the gullibal people.

i have lots to tell you, but i hope you dont end up wasting your money to get what everybody else have. but learning is just part of it and you can get that enywhere. but your experience fighting have to come from you, no matter who your teacher is. and even with the martial arts you already know, doing a lot of sparring with other fighters will improve your skill, not this "new and improve" stuff we see in the magazine. stop looking for the "secret technique", your too old and expereinced for that. go out and fight with other people, and master the skills you already have.

[Call Me Al]

I have to agree with Kuntawman on several of his points.

the main one I want to point out and refer to my earlier post concerning the Police and Military certification and I think it also could be applied to only SOME martial arts schools which is why you have to talk to the people whom you are going to train with and get a good feel for who they are personally as well as professionally.

I will give another example. A guy I work with is a certified defensive knife fighting instructor through the Kansas Law Enforcement Association Training Center. I checked out hte course and it was an 8 hour course with a practical at the end to gain certification. I believe we all can say that is not enough time and experience to gain a working knowledge or the skills to confront a knife head on. They will not allow him to teach at our department, but a lot of the security companies think it is enough to allow him to train their guys in the system. I believe KLETC has started reevaluating the course due to someone I have trained with pointing out the problems witht he training and introducing the aspects of the FMA.

I went to a seminar with Frank Cucci in Dodge City Kansas in around 1995 and he said way back then the military has limited hand to hand training but they go through basic and refresher courses off and on.

Attributes and experience of the instructor are important. I do think certification through certain schools and individuals are important to show you have the dedication. Guro Inosanto at one of his recent Seminars in Tulsa commented several of his Silat instructors did not have certification, but he learned from them anyway and he learned a lot. I think the difference was he did what you did and asked questions and made an informed decision and went for it.

[szorn]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Groin Grab

3) "I recommend that you post questions like this on a more ecclectic forum as opposed to a JKD based forum, you may get more enlightend answers that way." Alright, first why would a JKD based forum oppose or give unenlighted answers concerning Hawks system? Second what would be some better forums to post these questions on? like I said allthough it may seem like it I'm really not trying to dig up trash I just want to know whats up before I go investing a big chunck of money on something.

First of all, I agree that you should check out the instructors before you invest hard-earned money. That is good common sense. However, how you go about checking out the instructor is important as well. I mentioned that you shouldn't ask questions like that here. Basically, you have seen the reasons why. Alot of practitioners from various styles and systems (what I might refer to as purists) get upset when some of their fellow students leave to find their own paths. To them it's like a slap in the face. The fact is that we are all looking for that style, system, or art that fits our personality and I can't see why others would be upset when one of their fellow students moves on to continue that journey.

There are alot of different message boards out there. Some of them focus on ecclectic styles and systems.

As for the story about your friend. That may or may not be true. IF it is true there may be more to it. For example, maybe your friend really didn't have his test planned with Hock 6 months in advance, sometimes people just show up and expect to get tested. Hock always sets aside time for people to test if they choose to, so I can't see him telling your friend that he couldn't test, but it is possible that he was too busy or running behind on scheduling. As for being late to the seminar, that is possible and could be be for a number of reasons such as traffic jams, congested airports, broken alarm clock, etc. ect. The point is that we all have bad days and we are only human and make mistakes, so this shouldn't be a deciding factor in your quest for good training.

Lastly, when I said go to the source I didn't mean just get the books and videos. I ment that you should actually attempt to contact the instructor via phone or e-mail. This would give you a chance to ask questions and get an idea as to what kind of person the instructor is.

Let me say that I did the same thing when I first became curious about Hock and his material. I posted on message boards etc. The thing is that I never got a direct answer or I got answers from people who really didn't know what Hock was teaching. I got quite a few replies saying that Hock was teaching watered down JKD. Based on these inaccurate replies I decided to pass on training with Hock. Then about a year later I decided to forget everything I had heard and give Hock a fair try anyway. I quickly realized that Hock was teaching what I had spent 10 years looking for and now I wish I hadn't listened to all of those postings so that I could have started training with Hock sooner.

In any case, this isn't about Hock, it's about you. What do you want from your training, were do you want to go with it? If you like what you see on Hock's videos then you may very well enjoy training with him in person. I suggest that you check out one seminar with him. This won't cost you alot of money and it will give you a fair chance to evaluate what he has to offer. However, the same holds true for these other instructors as well. The only way you know for sure is to check them out in person.

Hope this helps,
Steve

[Groin Grab]

Yea that does help, and I think that your right about a lot of points you just made in this last post. Thanks a lot steve.

[Tony Torres]

Groovey Thought

[COLOR=darkblue]

Kuntawman, I like part of your reply; however you seem to be a bit misinformed when it comes to your descriptio of police tactics.

1. Most police officers (in spite of what you may have seen in the movies) do not get involved in shootings throughout their entire careers.

2. Most police officers deal with some level of physical resistance or get assaulted several times per month.

3. Most police officers that get assaulted are by themselves at the moment they are attacked.

4. Police Officers are out there dealing with violent, despicable people all the time just so you and your family dont have to come accross too many of them.


Groin Grab, Here is a thought from another instructor you should consider if you are looking for realistic street defense......he also happens to be one of the premier Law enforcement and military combatives trainer in the world right now.

"All self defense training is fake by definition, I come up with the most realistic fake stuff there is for streetfighting." Tony Blauer


Check him out at

https://www.tonyblauer.com

and

www.mixedmartialarts.com - go to the underground forum them click on the Mental Edge

Tony Torres
Va Beach, VA

[Bruce_Fan]

Keep us informed

Hi Groingrab,

Just a thought: Whatever ya decide on, keep us posted on it.
I personally, would be interested to hear your thoughts on whomever you choose to train with.

It's hard to say who really is the best trainer in the world. I think you will have to try different ones and see to whom you respond the best.

You didn't mention where you lived. For example, if you were in Southern California, you could attend Vunak's facility or the Inosanto academy.

Anyway, let us know what you choose.

Take care


Ps. I'll try and send you a private message.