Got my ass handled by a PFS instructor, today...

[Underdog]

Today I took a private lesson with Mr. Andrea Pruneddu; Phase one instructor under Paul Vunak's PFS association.

I have only one thing to say: in a streetfight he would have beaten me badly.

We sparred bareknuckle and I got a HARD boot kick in the knee; I managed to land a solid cross in return. The thing that surprised me the most is that the guy can grapple for sure, he sprawled against double leg and when I took him down, he went into guard. We trained in shorts,shirt and military boots, he ALWAYS went for my eyes, and in the clinch he bite me hard on my neck.

So this is Progressive fighting system?


I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I signed immediately for the apprentice instructor course, at the cost of traveling for 400 km one time at week. Fortunately the guy is from sardinia like me, so I didn' have to fly.

Yeah, I know, I'm a creonte, but when you find someone that can beat you, learn from him!

[NHBMARK1]

Hey Underdog,
Just curious.
How different is Ruas Vale tudo than PFS?
Any simmilarities?

[Underdog]

I dare to say that the two methods are COMPLETELY different; if I would pressed to say what is the most rilevant divergence I would say RYTHM; vale tudo is built upon conserving energy: in the ring you have no time limits, so if you rush you may get caught when you recover; PSF is EXPLOSIVE, geared toward street fighting. Each method is built for a purpose: VT is based mainly on conditioning, stamina, strenght and pain tolerance; PSF seems to rely on a syncopated rythm of attack, an overwhelming array of blows during the initial exchange and a killer mindset.

A PSF guy would be killed in the ring, (using rules), but on the streets, I dare to say that comparing the two is like comparing a pistol to a caterpillar coming at you at 160 mph.....

[NHBMARK1]

Cool, thanks!

[Twisted up]

"A PSF guy would be killed in the ring, (using rules), but on the streets, I dare to say that comparing the two is like comparing a pistol to a caterpillar coming at you at 160 mph....."


All this is true of course.......unless the PFS guy then fights another PFS (or similarly trained) person. THEN what happens?

The guy with the better "attributes" wins. This is something that isn't often developed by only doing PFS training.

This isn't just my opinion but, the opinion of another "prominent" PFS guy (who shall remain nameless for the purpose of this post) who feels the same way.

Nothing is "wrong" with PFS-style training. IT's a great method for street fighting. But to say that PFS would beat Vale-Tudo guys on the street, every time out is stretching it a bit. It all goes back to the attributes thing I mentioned earlier.

The problem with only PFS stuff is, often the training isn't "sportive" enough meaning, they don't often really mix it up with an uncooperative partner(s). I won't say that this is the case with ALL PFS people but, it seems to be the majority.

There have been PFS guys who attended a Straight Blast GYM
"camp" in the past and left after the FIRST DAY because they weren't able to deal with TRUE aliveness!

Like I said, PFS is cool and is certainly a great method for self-preservation. It's just a good idea to back it up with vale-tudo training in order to develop overall attributes NOT developed any other way.

[DTMT]

I think the best of both worlds would be a curriculum that consisted of PFS style training done with aliveness. I have seen PFS stuff and it's awesome. However, if it isn't done with aliveness, I think it can be limited. Anyone can look good doing HKE against a compliant opponent. Some PFS guys do the aliveness stuff too. I don't know which ones.

[DTMT]

.....I accidently double posted

[ReneH]

Demi Barbito, Scott Ferriera, their instructors, myself and others in PFS have taken their material to new heights. The focal point in our training has evolved to include training with gear as much as possible. Training the RAT in this way, against a resistant opponent who wants to do the same to you, is probably one of the most effective ways to functionalize one's methods.

Groundfighting, as opposed to ground grappling, are two very different worlds. So PFS addresses this arena of combat with a lot of biting, headbuts, eye gouges and other nasty things. To us, it's not just a streetfight but a matter of self-preservation.

I admire the SBG guys for what they do, Matt, Adam & Rory, Paul S, Luis G, great bunch of guys who train hard and smart. Incidentally, many PFS guys are cross training with SBG, no doubt it will lead to some interesting approaches in the years to come.

[Bruce_Fan]

Hi Underdog,

Very interesting post.

I am curious to know how different the PFS stuff Paul Vunak teach is from the JKD Burton Richardson teaches.

I know that Burton is cross-trained in a variety of ranges as well.

I'd also be curious to hear about your future lessons in the PFS arena, as I am curious about understanding it better myself.

Take care

Bruce Fan

[DanInNeckaha]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ReneH
Groundfighting, as opposed to ground grappling, are two very different worlds. So PFS addresses this arena of combat with a lot of biting, headbuts, eye gouges and other nasty things. To us, it's not just a streetfight but a matter of self-preservation.

That is an excellent point. If you don't train for the contingency of "dirty fighting" how will you defend it? A lot of guys who call their stuff "no holds barred" would probably be surprised by how many opportunities they leave open for dirty attacks and how many openings are available to them to fight dirty rather than lose to a guy that is physically or techinically better.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I actually have not liked some of the PFS "body mechanics" I have seen in sparring because of that point. You have to spar with uncooperative opponents! The blast and HKE get A LOT harder to pull off when someone doesn't want you to do it. I actually prefer to clinch over grab the back of someone's neck.

PS,
I am back everyone! I had to register AGAIN because for some reason the forum had my original name and password locked in its memory, but I could no longer access it because my original email address is no longer available.

How is everyone doing?

Ryu

[Underdog]

HEY RYU!

I was waiting for your response!

I was told you are from psf, right? What are the body mechanichs that did'nt buy you? The guy I trained with is in accord with you; I asked him why PSF guys grab the neck with only one hand and he told me that he prefear the thai clinch; however, he SLAPS the hand in the back of the neck driving you down with the power of his legs. The guy is an headbutting nut; only one thing left me so and so; he sometimes uses the top of the head to headbutt, and that's not correct to me. what do you think?

Ciao!

[ReneH]

PFS Clinch

The top of the head would be the most correct form to use when headbutting. The other variation, the front of the forehead would be the "Jean Claude Van Damme" method that would surely knock you out!

There is a reason for using the "Dumog" clinch vs. the Thai clinch. The Dumog clinch is suited for us to deliver constant headbutts, it affords us the liberty of manipulating the guys head to pop up, setting the guy up for the headbutt. The Thai clinch, would serve you better if you if you want to knee the face in general. Also, the Dumog clinch allows you to "peek" when in full RAT mode, something you have to do in a real streetfight. Think about it in those terms when doing the RAT.

In reference to PFS and our approach, sometimes it is the failure of the PFS practitioner in general to have taken the material to the level of "Aliveness." Like I said, people like myself, Demi, Scott, and others have evolved our material to include training with gear and etreme resistance. There is nothing wrong with the PFS material, it is solid and extremely workable. The only shortcoming is whether this material gets functionalized by the practitioner. It all comes back as to how you are training it.

A gun by itself is a lethal tool to have, training it tactically increases your ability to be extremely lethal with it. Just my 2 cents on this.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Hey Underdog,
I responded to your other thread too, go check it out.

Yeah I had an old PFS instructorship a couple years back from Paul. I should train with him again though to keep it in tact.
Well as far as body mechanics go, I have seen some PFS students who don't seem to have any explosion or power when they kick box, etc. Not to say it's wrong, but I tend to think that what you guys call "aliveness" is something you should strive for even within your body mechanics, movement, punches, etc.
Don't always just cooperatively throw jabs that you KNOW your partner will parry. And, I do not agree that everyone just holds their arms down and runs backwards when you are doing the blast. However, I'm trying to develop my blast into a very powerful striking technique (hopefully with knockout power like Vitor's version in Ultimate Brazil)

Grabbing the back of someone's neck sometimes leaves you open for bearhug clinches, and double legs from good wrestler's, etc.
Obviously you want to keep your elbows as a means of blocking the guy out from doing that, but I think it is a little more dangerous than people let on. I am working with lots of stuff now, and I'm trying to find what suites me best. For now I think I would like to clinch after the blast, and then see about headbutting or better yet, a throw or slam.
I've seen a few people who are not good at the "dumog" clinch really eat punches when they attempt it, AND their elbows and headbutts sometimes have little power, or can't reach the target.

That's only what I've seen, and I'm trying to find what works so...
I may change my mind

I'm still doing judo and BJJ heavily too.
Although Wedsday night I got beaten kinda bad by a 250 pound judoka whom I've beaten before in the past...but I had a bad cold while rolling, and my energy just dropped suddenly...ugh.


Ryu

[ReneH]

Great stuff, JKD Ryu

When Uncle Vu introduced me to the RAT it was quite an experience. I began to see the possibilities of what a real fight can mutate to.

As for the RAT clinch, yes, we want someone to go backwards. My twist on the RAT is that I modified it to my liking, because of my body style. When in the dumog clinch I don't try to create too much pressure to send someone back, I try to exert pressure directly on the neck itself, preferring to twisting my opponents neck out of its socket. I control the neck and move the entire body, through neck manipulation, in a zig zag, circling, mangling fashion. I don't want my opponent to have a good time while in the clinch, he should be hurting, yelping, and in constant pain, even before the raining down of elbows and headbutts. Ever since I leaned my clinch control in this manner I have yet eat any punches to my ribs, stomach, face or anywhere else. Also, controlling someone in this manner shifts their posture and base a lot lower making harder for them to get off any punches to your body. Gotta go...busy teaching right now.