What is JKD?

[ScubaJKD]

Dr Jack,

Please tell me where your Sifu got his credentials to instuct in JKD. I have never heard a single instructor "certified" to teach JKD tell anyone that grappling is not a part of JKD, or that it is not needed. Nor have I ever attended any acredited JKD school where grappling was not taught. I am interested in hearing more about where this is comming from. As I stated above, Jun Fan Gung Fu is comprised of grappling, trapping, and kickboxing. Anyone that tells you differently has not been exposed to the complete art as taught by Bruce Lee, and Guro Dan Inosanto. By the way you can not teach Jun Fan, as he has passed away. Jun Fan stands for Bruce Lee. You can however learn Jun Fan Gung Fu.

[DavinWest]

yeah

Amen.

[MercuryTurrent]

style is a 5 letter word

okeydoke, and what about style anyway? how do you know when you surpass style?
STYLE is not a bond you are held to. style, or whatever your style is, is not a set path. style is the way to describe the way you fight. you're going to have a style no matter what.
i guess you could cut style different ways, from close up to long range, from fast to powerfull, and even to all around. so, i wanna escape the word "style".
i think the word, or the point we are trying to make in a fight, is not to stick to a pattern. to be diverse and unpredictable in a fight. to become so well emerged in its science so as to weild your own formula, to cook something up at a moments notice. and, of course, the only way to become good is to learn some multible MMA, and stay away from bullshit like forms and katas and "dont hit the person here".
but ANOTHER thing to understand, is that a big part of fighting is countering. imagine if all bruce fought was little TKD fellers all his life, and then went against a BJJ dude.
im not sure though, if training yourself in varied arts, and getting as much experience in fighting other MA (instead of simply adopting it)... well, im not sure which one is more important :-/

[Dr Jack]

Scuba JKD,
I train in JKDC under Skip Watson ( certified by Marc McFann and Marc from Guro Inosanto). We practice grappling extensively. I also train under Alex Schennarah , apprentice instructor under Lamar Davis(certified by Steve Golden who was certified by Bruce). Lamar is also certified under another one of Bruce's students ( I forgot which one, sorry). Lamar claims you do not need to grapple! I have gotten no ground time at all in JFJKD.I respect Lamar and perhaps he does not need to be proficient on the ground but I do. He claims that if you train appropriately you can stop a grappler from taking you down. I do not want to start controversy but this will not work for me.
From my experience JFJKD is definitely a style with specific techniques etc. I will add some controversy hear as according to several authorities there are all numerous instructors now claiming to be fully certified under Sijo Lee.Just visit "Big JKD"website for Sean Madigans's list of instructors. Also visit the Bruce Lee Educational Foundation website for even more. I am like you that for 15 years after Bruce's death Dan Inosanto was the only one we ever heard or read about. Since about 1990 I have been seeing and hearing about more and more of them.I am not so sure about JKDC which in my experience does not appear like any style I have studied! If you want to understand more of where I am coming from I urge to visit the "Authentic JFJKD" website hosted by Sifu Ron Prather, he is one of Sifu Lamar's apprentice instructors.You will see the side of JFJKD I have been exposed to. Weapons training is another area I do not see taught in JFJKD , I am not saying this is good or bad , just that it is.I hope this gives you a better idea of my background and experiences. I am interested in your thoughts.

Jack

[Socrates]

Greetings,

I'm interested to know why nobody as yet has addressed the questions I raised about 'JKD' being a style?

And with all the talk regarding being the most flexible in order to win a fight etc, I feel I should raise another point.

Bruce Lee was apparently a great street fighter, this has yet to have been confirmed. Some people think it was hype in order to further his movie career and also to give credibility to his so called style of fighting.

As previously mentioned I wonder if Bruce was not averse to using what he felt useful, like Eastern Philosophy for example, for commercial purposes.

If we are so interested in learning to fight for real why don't we follow what Peyton Quinn, Marc Macyoung or even Geoff Thompson teach over so-called 'JKD'?

After all when Geoff Thompson, a British nightclub bouncer, was asked which martial art he would recommend studying for self defense he said this.

'Number one would be Western boxing because nearly all altercations begin at punching range and it is the most clinical punching system on the planet. If I had to pick two it would be Western boxing and judo or wrestling. Three and it would be Western boxing, judo and Thai boxing.'

And this guy knows what he's talking about. We know for a fact that he's been involved in real life street fighting, there's no doubt he knows what he's talking about.

But with Bruce, well who really knows. Of course we could ask those first generation students, who depend on us believing the hype, for their opinions.

I'm not saying Bruce Lee hasn't done anything for the MA or that anything associated with him is rubbish, I'm just saying we should stay switched on. With all the hype surrounding Bruce and 'JKD' it's easy to be fooled. Dan Inosanto says it doesn't matter what style we train in, if we train hard and stay alert nothing will stop us.

Look foward to your comments on this one.

Cheers

Socrates

'Self education is, I believe, the only kind of education there is.'
Isaac Asimov

[Dr Jack]

Socrates,
Based on your answer to my post I would like to ask you ,what experience in the martial arts do you have? I am not trying to be nasty or a smart alleck . I suspect your experience is limited. Traditional arts especially the chinese arts are very heavily influenced by tradition and our training is based upon mimicry and trying to copy your instructor as closely as possible. Yes the martial artist is responsible for this blind following of an instructor. but if all arts were historically like this and they were and if it is all you were exposed to ( and it was ) this is how we become slaves to a style. Lee came and said you do not have to do this, this was radical thinking. By today's standards not so as so many martial artists question and ask why. This is very recent and I feel primarily through Bruce's teaching. Also Bruce was one of the few to teach Gung Fu to nonchinese, radical for it's day but accepted today.
I read another of your posts where you mention your goal of becoming a martial arts master, that is admirable . I urge to study at least for a time a traditional Chinese or Japanese style.Then train in jkd. It will all become clear where Sijo Lee was coming from. I may have misunderstood your question, I invite your comments.

Jack

[ScubaJKD]

Hello Again Jack,

Thanks that helps alot. Marc McFann is comming to my school in January for a seminar in Mande Muda Silat. Anyone that has ever trained with him has truly gotten a world class educaton in the arts.

I think I see your delima. Let me try and clear some of it up without getting into a huge debate here on JFJKD or Original JKD as some people like to call it.

Bruce Lee did grapple and did teach grappling to his students. However this was not until later in the development of Jun Fan Gung Fu and thus JKD.

Therfore those people who did not follow Bruce Lee to Los Angeles did not get the benefit of the evolution of his teaching at that time period.

The grappling of that time period was adopted from Gene Lebell, Wally Jay, and Wrestling. Check out Larry Hartsells entering to trapping to grappling and you can get a general idea of where I am comming from. The main difference on how it was taught then versus how it is taught now is the locks were not contested.

IE they did not spar them out like they did the punching, trapping, and kicking. They would just apply the lock and then tap out. Under the instruction of Guro Inosanto this has obviously changed over the years with the addition of Shoot Wrestling, Silat, and Machado Brazilian Jujitsu. However the grappling of Jun Fan Gung Fu and JKD of that time period is also taught in its original form. It is an excellent base of grappling for one to then become well versed in groundfighting regaurdless of the art you choose to continue to grow. As stated above JFGF is not the end but only the beginning.

Guro Inosanto has recently put out a video series that you should check out. One of the tapes is "Jun Fan Grappling". It covers the grappling that was taught at that time period. Single leg, double leg, finger locks, arm locks, neck cranks, chokes, etc, and the flow into these techniques.

Marc McFann or any other Inosanto instructor is more than qualified to teach you more from the Jun Fan Grappling area. It did and still does exist today. Probably the most world renowned JKD grappler is obviously Larry Hartsell who Marc McFann is also certified by.

The problem it seems you are running into is that those who espouse to teach "original JKD" have never realized that the art for Bruce Lee advanced greatly for him and his students through the LA time period. Bruce trained in Kali, Silat, Thai Boxing, and grappling arts. All of this is part of what some people call "original JKD" or now JFJKD. The problem is they were not there so they do not know. The really funny things is when these same people try to define Bruce's arts as the original art or JFJKD. because the original art was and still is Jun Fan Gung Fu.

As for your Sifu it sounds like he is part of the " Original JKD " or Jun Fan JKD crowd. Unfortunatly unless they are certified by Guro Inosanto they are not certified to teach JKD. That is not to say that they don't know anything I am sure some of them are very knowledgeable. However if you don't know it, you don't teach it. Or you tell someone that it does not exist. There is alot more out there my freind. I would suggest you investigate this further with you instuctor under Marc McFann. There is lots to learn.

Oh and as for not needing grappling. hahahahaha. I used to think that as well until I met Marc McFann. Talk about a wake up call !!!! The truth shall set you free. hahahahaha

Best wishes.

[gungfuhero]

JKD is a convenient name for the art based on total freedom. It is rejection from the overly rational martial arts tradition which claims to know exactly how fights start, play through and end. JKD doesn't claim that fights will go to the ground out of necessity, that you will be able to stop every grappler from taking you down or any other over presumptuous nonsense. The JKD man knows that fights are fairly unpredictable and trains in the different ranges and often in different arts to develop a more complete game. JKD is the style where the individual creates his own game, or a better ananlogy, is constantly improvising like a Jazz musician doing an improvisation. There is no set method for improvising and you don't have to have studied a certain musician's style before you can be a good improvisational musician. You learn how to create notes and learn music theory (just as a Jun Fan or PFS or JKDU student would learn tools and theories valued by his instructor), but the improvisation is the creation of the artist.

I once read in one of Chris Kent's books that a JKD man is a martial artist who has access to the whole pie (full range of tools and strategies) and not just one or two pieces. He uses what he needs when he needs it.

[ScubaJKD]

Socrates,

The deeper question you must ask yourself is what are you training for. What are your self defense requirements. That will drive which art you begin to study and will guide you along your path.

If your goal is to be able to defend yourself or your loved ones in mortal combat you have just defined the answer for yourself.

Personally I love western boxing. It was my first art. Very few things prepare you to use your fists as well as boxing. However boxing as a self defense art is limited. The value in boxing I believe comes from the development of attributes. ie speed, timing, footwork, and defense to name a few. However boxing technique is limited in its value when you find yourself confronted by a box cutter or baseball bat. There are other arts that have a much better game to deal with such an attack.

Again you have to ask yourself what am I training for. If you want to be the best bouncer then that will dictate some of the arts you should study. However training to be a bouncer hardly prepares you for the complete and total reality of anything and everything that can happen to you in a confrontation or combat engagement.

Consider some of the parameters of self defense. Terrain, weather, uniform, number of attackers, weapons deployed, intent of the attacker etc. Knocking out a drunk in a bar is hardly the same as preparing for the phyco crazed killer that breaks into your house at night and jumps into your bed with a knife intent on killing you and raping your wife.

The goal of self defense is a huge task given the absolutely limitless types of encounters to prepare for.

Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do is a great place to begin your quest because you will be exposed to all ranges and learn to develop your attributes and techniques in those ranges. From there you can explore your own path based upon what helps you attain your self defense goals.

[gungfuhero]

I got to thinking, and I have a way of explaining what JKD is as far as Bruce Lee's art. Once you take on the role of teacher, you have the obligation of deciding what to teach. What you teach is largely based upon your own experiences dealing with what you are successful with. Bruce Lee's goal was to help his students realize their existential freedom through martial art. The way he did it was to teach them tools and tactics that were part of his expression based on his realization of total freedom. Bruce Lee once wrote that although he didn't believe in styles, you have to teach something. That something is not set in stone for everybody.

[Dr Jack]

Scuba JKD and Socrates and Gung Fu Hero,
Check out the Feb 2002 issue of Inside Kung Fu. It covers some of the issues we have been talking about.The article about debunking 10 JKD myths, I picked it up after my post last night.

Scuba
Do you train in a Terry Gibson lineage school? I used to train with Harold Lee Peacock in Jacksonville Florida. He was certified by Terry.

Jack

[ScubaJKD]

Dr Jack,

I have direct lineage through the following instructors. Joseph Cowels, Terry Gibson, Mike Mathews, Paul Vunak, as well as directly from Guro Inosanto. Thanks for asking.

[Socrates]

Greetings Jack,

In response to your question, my main experience comes from Western Boxing, which has helped me numerous times in real self-defense situations, and I've also studied other Martial arts like Karate and Aikido.

Wing chun is what I'm practicing now, it's essentially a simplistic style. Due to my previous experience of real fighting situations I know this is what is needed. Simplicity is the key.

I have already begun my quest to become a great martial artist.

I've really enjoyed the replies I have recieved so far and look forward to posting here again in the future.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Socrates.

'The meaning of things lies not in things themselves, but in our attitudes to them'
Antoine De Saint-Exupery

[Dr Jack]

Socrates,
I am surprised that you as a practioner of a traditional chinese art do not understand how we are taught to follow our instructor blindly and "swear " an allegiance to our chosen art. Do you not see the limitation of western boxing and wing chun? I too have trained in boxing and JFJKD in which I train receives about 90% of it's structure from wing chun. I think I can see the limitations of both arts. Neither is terribly effective at kicking range. Neither is effective at grappling range. Boxing depending on how it is taught and trained can teach you some bad habits, after all it is a sport.Now, as you train if you do not plug up the holes of your arts you will never achieve the results you could have acheived. This is what Lee was talking about. As long as all you train in are these arts you be molded into a wing chun man or boxer. Lee wants to liberate you from this! You say it is the martial artists' choice if he is bound by his style or not, that is true as long as you explore other arts , otherwise you would not know any better. you would never know where you are weak. The traditional arts bill themselves as complete systems ( which most are not). Until relatively recently most martial artists started with one style and never even considered another art. I remember in the early 70's it was obvious when you attended a tournament what a man's art was by how he fought. A northern chinese arts man was a heavy kicker( just like a Tae Kwon Do man), a Japanese karateka was primarily hands with some simple kicking. And so it went, at that time martial artists were very true to their style and believed in them, it was very rare to see someone with much experience in multiple arts. If you remember this was the era of Bruce his ideas become very radical indeed. I really do not know if this is where you wanted to go with this thread, but here we are. I invite your comments.


Jack

[Socrates]

Hi Jack,

Thank you for your comments they are extremely fair and thought provoking. If I may I’d like to review the discussion so far and also try to clarify the viewpoints I have on ‘JKD’, real fighting and western boxing/wing chun.

First off, I asked the question what is ‘JKD’? My reason for doing this was to try and clarify some of the ideas I had regarding Bruce and ‘JKD’ and also to learn at the same time. After asking the initial question I defined the word concept, my reason? Because of the fact that Dan Inosanto says ‘JKD’ itself is not a style, but a concept. Next I briefly discussed the influence that Krishnamurti and other philosophers had on Bruce and how this affected his philosophy of fighting. I finished by asking the following questions:

Was the concept of ‘Jeet Kune Do’ meant to escalate and become what it has today?

Is the name ‘Jeet Kune Do’ itself important?

Does ‘JKD’ really exist? Or is it just a way for us as MA to associate ourselves with the legend of Bruce Lee?

And finally, have we as Martial Artists totally missed the point of Bruce Lee’s philosophy of the MA and life?

We then moved onto the topic of style. Where I asked, was Bruce right to believe that Styles mould and limit individual MA? I also asked was it not the fault of the individual MA for Choosing to blindly follow that style and therefore limit themselves?

I also said the following:

‘In my opinion ‘Jeet Kune Do’ is a style, yet it claims not to be so. Bruce invented his own style and named it ‘JKD’ yet instead of liberating martial artists he has trapped them into thinking ‘JKD’ is the real deal. In my opinion it’s the association with Bruce Lee that is important for those who consider themselves to be ‘JKD’ men.

My point was, can we not see that by blindly following ‘JKD’, we’re doing exactly what Bruce didn’t want. And that is, following whatever a certain teacher or style says without ever questioning it for ourselves.

This led onto a lot of talk about real fighting and different ranges etc. So I suggested that if it was real fighting we were interested in then why not study some of the ideas and work of people like Marc Macyoung, Peyton Quinn and Geoff Thompson. My reason for suggesting these guys was that they have had real, documented, fighting experience.

I said Geoff Thompson recommended training in MA like Western Boxing, Judo/wrestling and Thai Boxing. The replies to this particular point seemed to suggest these were not such wise words, especially so in the case of Western Boxing.

When I replied to you regarding my MA background, I was not saying that Boxing and Wing chun were the only forms of fighting that one ever need to study. I was merely saying that, due to my experience of real life fighting, I saw these two arts as an extremely useful addition to our study of the MA/self-defense.


Jack, regarding these two arts you say ‘Neither is effective at grappling range’ I find this a very strange comment because while it is true that doing boxing will not show us how to grapple it does show us how to get into grappling range.

Rick Young, who was trained by Inosanto, says.

‘Western Boxing has to be one of the most appropriate and natural systems for use in the street. You can use both hands for power utilizing shots to the body, head and groin. Boxers are also very adept at holding and hitting while in a clinch, which is a common position in a street fight. Boxing, like most of the other arts I recommend, is also ‘real’ in that within the confines of its rules it is tried and tested, with anything that does not work being thrown out.’

He also says:

‘Wing chun is renowned for its realistic close quarter fighting techniques and training methods. This is an art that, if trained with self-protection or real combat in mind, can be an awesome addition to anyone’s arsenal.’

After this he goes onto discuss the merits of Judo & Thai boxing and their relevance to real combat/self protection. He finishes by saying that Geoff Thompson is an expert in the area of close-in fighting and highly recommends us to read Geoff’s work, especially his writings on fear and how to deal with and understand adrenal reaction.

Geoff’s books/videos etc. can be found at http://www.geoffthompson.com/

Remember as they say ‘Absorb what is useful and add what is specifically your own.’

Bruce Lee is the reason I started training in the MA all those years ago and my reasons for writing these posts have not been malicious ones, all I intended to do was ask a few questions and learn a little more about ‘JKD’. As previously mentioned, I agree with a lot of what has been said in these posts and I understand the importance of practicing multiple arts. Although as a philosopher I have felt the need to ask questions in the hope that it will open my eyes to something I may of missed.

I’m open to learning from as many sources as possible. It’s this mind set that will help me in my quest to becoming a great martial art instructor. So again I’d like to say thank you for all of your replies, they’ve been great and if you get the chance to check out Geoff Thompson’s work then I’d be interested to know what you think of it.

Hope to hear from you again soon, until the next post take it easy and train hard.

Cheers
Socrates

‘Tell me, I’ll forget. Show me, I may remember. But involve me and I’ll understand.’
Chinese Proverb.