Jeet Kune Do

[Zhao]

Anyone here read "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" by Bruce Lee? Just wondering. And I'm new here, I am studying Jeet Kune Do and it's helped me alot with my knowledge and understanding of martial arts.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Well considering what this forum is dedicated too, I'm almost sure most people posting have read it.

Take care,
Ryu

[J.K.]

never heard of it.....kidding of course.

[Halloween Jack]

I bought and read Tao of Jeet Kune Do after I became a big fan of Bruce Lee's movies. There was a lot of helpful advice on biomechanics in combat and how to be a crafty puncher. I would've liked to see a lot more of that kind of advice and a lot less philosophical gobbledygook. Unfortunately, a lot of Lee's ideas on combat seemed to stem from a mindset suited more to vale tudo than to personal self-defense.

[PentjackSilat]

Gobbledygook

Personally, I think that the most important part of Jun Fan's JKD is the pilosophy. It is what led him turn to biomechanics. Infact, I think that the one thing that sets JKD apart from the rest is the goobledygook. Without 'philosophical abstracts' like: "It is just a name, don't fuss over it." and this would be Tae Kwon Do. There would be mindless robotic students doing biomechanically correct forms and boasting how this is the superior art that no other even glimpses in their glory. As Goku says, the mind will always beat the body, because the mind controls the body. You can't just train your martial arts body. At this point in my evolution, I am training my martial arts body, my philosophical mind, my social being, my funny side, and my undying passion. It is my goal to be the well rounded martial artist who can wield weapons, kick, punch, trap, throw, and grapple. But the goobledygook has had an interesting and flummoxed effect on me. If the best way to be a martial artist is to be a well rounded martial artist, then philosophically, that carries over into the rest of my life. Hence, to be the best person possible is to be the most well rounded person possible. And I really don't think I would be the same person I am in martial arts, or any other aspect of my life without:
THE 4 TENETS OF JEET KUNE DO:
1) RESEARCH YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE FOR THE TRUTH.
2) ABSORB WHAT IS USEFUL.
3) REJECT WHAT IS USELESS.
4) ADD WHAT IS SPECIFICALLY YOUR OWN.
Honestly, can you tell me that the study of things like this would not affect the rest of your life in some beneficial way? Even the the mantra on the logo:
HAVING NO LIMITATION AS LIMITATION
USING NO WAY AS WAY
is profoundly moving. Would these ideals not have a drastic effect on your ability? Can you just train the body and not the mind? It is like building a Porsche without learning to drive properly and efficiently. Without these ideals, you would never know that the ultimate goal of JKD is not to need JKD, and would thus be stuck in the self defeating purpose of endlessly training without ever becoming enlightened, and:
RETURNING TO THE PRIMAL STATE.
But this is just my opinion.
Little old me.
And what am I in the grand scheme of things?...
I'm just a little squirrel trying to get a nut.

[Halloween Jack]

Re: Gobbledygook

Originally posted by PentjackSilat
[B]Personally, I think that the most important part of Jun Fan's JKD is the pilosophy. It is what led him turn to biomechanics. Infact, I think that the one thing that sets JKD apart from the rest is the goobledygook. Without 'philosophical abstracts' like: "It is just a name, don't fuss over it." and this would be Tae Kwon Do. There would be mindless robotic students doing biomechanically correct forms and boasting how this is the superior art that no other even glimpses in their glory.

That's pretty funny, since I hear JKD guys do that a lot.

As Goku says, the mind will always beat the body, because the mind controls the body. You can't just train your martial arts body. At this point in my evolution, I am training my martial arts body, my philosophical mind, my social being, my funny side, and my undying passion.

That's nice, and it's important to martial arts, but not to combat training...there's a difference between the two.

Can you just train the body and not the mind? It is like building a Porsche without learning to drive properly and efficiently. Without these ideals, you would never know that the ultimate goal of JKD is not to need JKD, and would thus be stuck in the self defeating purpose of endlessly training without ever becoming enlightened, and:
RETURNING TO THE PRIMAL STATE.

You have to "train your mind" in terms of developing mental attributes that relate to combat. But you don't need to read up on Krishnamurti to be a better fighter.

I don't want to study martial arts so I can become enlightened or express myself spiritually. (Off-topic note: If JKD is so keen on that, why does Bruce disparage forms? He was very familiar with them.) I pursue martial arts training as a survival skill, not an art form. So a lot of JKD philosophy doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

[PentjackSilat]

That is true. Training to survive on the street is not about becoming enlightened. It is not about being an all around person who is socially engaged. What about quoting Kant and Locke will help me survive a mugger? So what if I have the mental training that allows me to speed up my mind!? We all know that the ability to to quickly grasp a subject matter does not carry over to your ability to quickly grasp whether that is a hook or a haymaker coming at you. We all know that the village idiot who takes 6 seconds to add 2 and 2, and a whole month to decipher one line of Shakespeare will somehow magically be able to put his profound mental abilities to work and be able to rule out all the variables of which punch, or maybe it's a kick, is coming at him in the .005 second window he has to figure this out, decide what to do, and then actually do it well.
Look at all the could be's in boxing. They can barely put a sentence together. Then listen to people like Roy Jones Jr. A man who is a singer, fighter, semi-pro basketball player. How eloquently he is able to communicate himself. Listen to his responses when Jim Lampley talks to him. They are intelligent, well thought, succinct...and he is one of the best boxers in the world, ever. Now look at these Joe Nobody's who can't even come close to staying on subject matter and mumble incoherence. Sure, they're good enough to fight.
I do yield this point to you: Most people don't have the ability to use their mind in a focused and deepening manner. What I say is for the psyche elite, and will do no good for John Q. Public. So in that you are correct. Most people are mumbling incoherences.
So I guess the question isn't what is better, since both work, but which do you want to be? Roy Jones, or Nobody?

[Halloween Jack]

That seemed a bit incoherent to me. But in a street fight I'd rather be Mike Tyson than Montesquieu.

[PentjackSilat]

I had hoped for a good debate with you. However, I can see why you would rather be like Mike Tyson. All brawns...no brains...on enormous amounts of medication...a funny appetite for human ears. If that is what you want to be thought of as...then no problem...I won't even waste my breathe on someone who doesn't even give an intelligent rebuttle, and wants to be thought of as a rapist.

[PentjackSilat]

To Recapitulate

For those of you who are just tuning in.
HalloweenJack came out banging with a left "JKD sucks."
But PentjackSilat answered back with a right "only if you suck at it."
Back and forth, and to and fro these two went, until HalloweenJack tried to take a bite out of PenjackSilat.
"Get off me you rabid rapist!" he replied.

But seriously folks, here is where we stand.
HalloweenJack is arguing that philosophy has no place in real fight training.
I am arguing that that is only one approach. You can train for real fighting singlemindedly with a gung-ho approach. But I believe there can also be another level, a level where the expanded mind, developed through pursuits other than martial arts, can carry over and actually improve your ability. I think that this is the path of the elite. Yes, you can be a great fighter just training the physical aspects of it. But to be the top 1%, I think you need to expand your mind.

[Halloween Jack]

Originally posted by PentjackSilat
That is true. Training to survive on the street is not about becoming enlightened. It is not about being an all around person who is socially engaged. What about quoting Kant and Locke will help me survive a mugger?

Nothing. Glad you realized that.

So what if I have the mental training that allows me to speed up my mind!?

I don't know what you mean by "mental training" and I definitely don't know what you mean by "speed up my mind." Certainly, studying philosophy or any kind of academic "subject matter" won't increase the speed of your thought processes.

We all know that the ability to to quickly grasp a subject matter does not carry over to your ability to quickly grasp whether that is a hook or a haymaker coming at you. We all know that the village idiot who takes 6 seconds to add 2 and 2, and a whole month to decipher one line of Shakespeare will somehow magically be able to put his profound mental abilities to work and be able to rule out all the variables of which punch, or maybe it's a kick, is coming at him in the .005 second window he has to figure this out, decide what to do, and then actually do it well.

I can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic. The fact that you're being nonsensical makes it difficult to tell. The village idiot probably can't see the punch coming, but the mathematician and the poet laureate don't have a good chance, either.

Look at all the could be's in boxing. They can barely put a sentence together. Then listen to people like Roy Jones Jr. A man who is a singer, fighter, semi-pro basketball player. How eloquently he is able to communicate himself. Listen to his responses when Jim Lampley talks to him. They are intelligent, well thought, succinct...and he is one of the best boxers in the world, ever. Now look at these Joe Nobody's who can't even come close to staying on subject matter and mumble incoherence. Sure, they're good enough to fight.

Roy Jones Jr. is a successful boxer who is intelligent. There have been plenty of unintelligent successful boxers, too. Certainly Roy's intelligence helped him decide which lifestyle choices and training methods would make him a better boxer. But the moment he stepped into the ring, another set of skills came into play, skills which don't require you to be a great conversationalist or talented singer in order to develop them.

In other words, what the hell is your point?

By the way, I'd just like to note that I'm talking about violent crime and you're talking about boxing.

And, by the way, I know a lot of stupid vocalists, so I don't see where Roy's singing talent has to do with anything.

What I say is for the psyche elite, and will do no good for John Q. Public. So in that you are correct. Most people are mumbling incoherences.

Next time you accuse John Q. Public of idiocy, make sure that your grammatical skills exceed his. Making sure that you know the definitions of words like "psyche" before you use them is also helpful. I know John Q. Public, and while he's not all that bright, he knows when he's being insulted by an idiot who read a book on Zen and watched The Matrix and thinks the fact that he "got it" secures his place among the intelligentsia.

So I guess the question isn't what is better, since both work, but which do you want to be? Roy Jones, or Nobody? [/B]

You can learn how to fight, and you can study philosophy and become a cul-turd in-duh-dividual. But the two have nothing to do with each other. If The Tao of Jeet Kune Do helped you to realize that the self is an illusion, that's great. But it doesn't make you a better fighter.

[Halloween Jack]

Re: To Recapitulate

Originally posted by PentjackSilat
For those of you who are just tuning in.
HalloweenJack came out banging with a left "JKD sucks."

Nope. Never did. Please hang up and try again.

But PentjackSilat answered back with a right "only if you suck at it."

How do you "suck at" Jeet Kune Do? It's a philosophy.

Back and forth, and to and fro these two went, until HalloweenJack tried to take a bite out of PenjackSilat.
"Get off me you rabid rapist!" he replied.

For a long time now, Pentjack and the Psyche Elite have relied upon the might of their ad hominem attacks to defeat the terrible forces which threaten the very existence of the small, fragile universe contained within their heads. Still, vile villains such as Logic and Rational Thought continue to lurk in the shadows, waiting to pounce upon the many flaws in the insular delusion Pentjack's mind calls home.

But seriously folks, here is where we stand.
HalloweenJack is arguing that philosophy has no place in real fight training.

Wrong.

I don't think the teacher should try to force his philosophy on his students when that's not what they're paying him to do. There are lots of places you can go to in search of "the Truth." Art. Literature. Philosophical, theological, and religious writings. But there are very few places where a civilian can learn how to survive violent attack. Philosophy has a place. It's just not a top priority. It's near the bottom of the list.

If I bought a book by Stephen Hawking that was supposed to be about quantum physics and he included a chapter on how a physicist should abide by the Noble Eightfold Path, I'd be pissed. It's not what I paid for.

And who says that your martial arts teacher has a better grasp of "the Truth" than you do? When I read a book or an article by someone like Geoff Thompson or Marc MacYoung, I accept them as an authority and trust them when they say "this is the truth," or "that is not the truth"...as far as personal protection tactics are concerned. If they decided to start speaking as an authority on how I should live my life, vote, or repair my radio, I wouldn't particularly care what they had to say.

But I believe there can also be another level, a level where the expanded mind, developed through pursuits other than martial arts, can carry over and actually improve your ability. I think that this is the path of the elite.

I've never met anyone who I really thought was enlightened and had an "expanded mind" that set them head-and-shoulders above their fellow man on an intellectual or moral level. Then again, I have very little inclination towards hero worship.

But to be the top 1%, I think you need to expand your mind.

As the autopsy revealed, Bruce felt that he needed something besides the Tao to do just that.

A final piece of advice: When you use the Big-Shit-Eating-Grin-Smiley in every other paragraph, it starts to lose its meaning.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Tired argument (then again I'm in a foul mood tonight so maybe it's just me.)

Philosophy has its place in martial arts and fighting, but during the actual fight you better have your physical skills at their peak.

when you are in a real assualt you need power, speed, meanness, groundskills, etc. It's all physical in the physical fight.

Your philosophy guides you on how to handle yourself and your skills responsibly, morally, and spiritually if you choose.

Sure spirituality and philosophy are very personal matters. But that doesn't mean coming up with your own philosophy on life will be equal to someone else's whose studied more. Your world view may not be healthy for others around you either. So if you want to develop your philo you study it hard just like anything else.

So
Physical fighting means you've got to be physical.
Being philosophical will give you better opportunities to understand yourself, your skills, what you can do better, why you are doing it, etc. Philosophy is not required to be able to fight
(thugs, criminals can fight) But if you blow it off you run the risk of missing out on things that can help and guide your physical training (and that can come from many venues, religion, etc.)

Night...

Ryu

[PentjackSilat]

Quote: I don't know what you mean by "mental training" and I definitely don't know what you mean by "speed up my mind." Certainly, studying philosophy or any kind of academic "subject matter" won't increase the speed of your thought processes.

A little lesson in brain chemistry. The brain has 12 to 15 billion nerve cells, called neurons, that can each form thousands of connections with other neurons. The more connections there are, the more capable the brain is of getting from location A to location B because it doesn’t have to take the perimeter road. When the brain is exposed to a new experience, or stimulus, an unused pattern of neurons is activated. This pattern is called a program. When a new program is activated the impulses have a hard time bridging the synaptic gap from one neuron to another. As the new program is reintroduced through repetition, a fatty substance called myelin coats the dendrites, the part of the neurons that give and receive impulses. Each time the program is run myelin is secreted. The more myelin built up, called myelination, the faster and smoother the impulses jump from dendrite to dendrite...i.e. speeding up the mind. If you have any quarrels with this information, talk to Professor Michael Posner of the University of Oregon.

Quote: The village idiot probably can’t see the punch coming, but the mathematician and the poet laureate don’t have a good chance either.

Considering neither have been trained in any martial art, I agree with you. However, if you were to start training them both at the same moment, the mathematician will advance must faster. Before you rebuttal this...get some experience in this, and not just “well that doesn’t sound right.” I have experimented with this on and off for three years, and this is what keeps happening over and over again.

Quote: Roy Jones Jr. is a successful boxer who is intelligent. There have been plenty of unintelligent successful boxers, too. Certainly Roy's intelligence helped him decide which lifestyle choices and training methods would make him a better boxer. But the moment he stepped into the ring, another set of skills came into play, skills which don't require you to be a great conversationalist or talented singer in order to develop them.

In other words, what the hell is your point?

By the way, I'd just like to note that I'm talking about violent crime and you're talking about boxing.

How do you know? Have you ever been in the ring? Your telling me that through your extensive experience in ring fighting that you know for a fact that none of the attributes you acquire in the ring give you tools you can use to survive?
And you have missed the forest for the trees. My point is not that each individual skill makes him a better fighter, but that his overall ability to do so many things with ease shows that boxing is not something that takes up all of his brain power. Hence he is at such a high level of proficiency and only using a small fraction of his brain to do it, that if a situation occurred where he needed to think creatively...his brain would not be completely occupied. You know things like “Oh no! Here comes five of his friends! What should I do?” Instead of being so occupied with this guy that you don’t see them. Or not noticing that fork that’s laying next to you that fell off the table. You know, the fork you can use to stick in his ribs as he’s mounted on you and raining down punches. Fighting IS creativity. Fighting IS adapting to your situation. The faster you can adapt...the faster you survive. Adapting is not “Well I should hook this guy.” Adapting is “Well if I put that ladder between me and the ugly guy, and throw the chair at the skinny guy, I can get past the short dude with a long side kick (since he’s short), and out the door.

Quote: Next time you accuse John Q. Public of idiocy, make sure that your grammatical skills exceed his. Making sure that you know the definitions of words like "psyche" before you use them is also helpful. I know John Q. Public, and while he's not all that bright, he knows when he's being insulted by an idiot who read a book on Zen and watched The Matrix and thinks the fact that he "got it" secures his place among the intelligentsia.

Psyche: noun. 1) The human soul, spirit, or mind. 2)The mental structure of a person, especially as a motive force.
And you didn’t understand this because?
“The psyche elite”.....The person with the mental structure whose motive force is to be elite.
Again, you didn’t understand this because?
Also, since we are on grammatical errors:
“I know John Q. Public, and while he's not all that bright, he knows when he's being insulted by an idiot who read a book on Zen and watched The Matrix and thinks the fact that he "got it" secures his place among the intelligentsia.”
This is one hell of a run-on sentence!

Quote: You can learn how to fight, and you can study philosophy and become a cul-turd in-duh-dividual. But the two have nothing to do with each other. If The Tao of Jeet Kune Do helped you to realize that the self is an illusion, that's great. But it doesn't make you a better fighter.

See my definition of myelination above.

Quote: For a long time now, Pentjack and the Psyche Elite have relied upon the might of their ad hominem attacks to defeat the terrible forces which threaten the very existence of the small, fragile universe contained within their heads. Still, vile villains such as Logic and Rational Thought continue to lurk in the shadows, waiting to pounce upon the many flaws in the insular delusion Pentjack's mind calls home.

Wonderful use of vocabulary. I am certainly impressed. But will you accept some objective criticism? Study up on the use of commas.

Quote: I don't think the teacher should try to force his philosophy on his students when that's not what they're paying him to do. There are lots of places you can go to in search of "the Truth." Art. Literature. Philosophical, theological, and religious writings. But there are very few places where a civilian can learn how to survive violent attack. Philosophy has a place. It's just not a top priority. It's near the bottom of the list.

I agree. But, it is a priority for me.

Quote: And who says that your martial arts teacher has a better grasp of "the Truth" than you do? When I read a book or an article by someone like Geoff Thompson or Marc MacYoung, I accept them as an authority and trust them when they say "this is the truth," or "that is not the truth"...as far as personal protection tactics are concerned. If they decided to start speaking as an authority on how I should live my life, vote, or repair my radio, I wouldn't particularly care what they had to say.

Wow, what you just said sounds eerily similar to.....philosophy?!

Quote: As the autopsy revealed, Bruce felt that he needed something besides the Tao to do just that.

Read up on the facts before you make accusations with no evidence to stand on. The little bit of hashish in his stomach was not enough to cause a serious altering of his mind, but was prescribed to him by a Chinese Doctor for migraines.

Quote: A final piece of advice: When you use the Big-Shit-Eating-Grin-Smiley in every other paragraph, it starts to lose its meaning.

[Bau]

Quit whining and challenge each other....