Still Wing Chun Trapping?

[Halloween Jack]

I'm curious as to whether or not most JKD systems still use the wing chun traps. I've seen photos of Lamar M. Davis and Jerry Beasley using them, but I hear PFS guys talk more often about straight-blasting through an attack and fighting from the clinch. And Matt Thornton has, I believe, thrown wing chun trapping completely out of his system in favor of Muay Thai/Greco-Roman clinching techniques. So...do you guys still use them?

In my opinion, some of the simple wing chun traps can be effective...but when I see people on the web giving each other advice on 5 and 6 step trapping combinations and posting new, really long trapping sets, I kinda roll my eyes and dismiss them as sport stylists that won't own up to what they are. It's kind of like hearing from karate guys who claim to focus only on self-defense against street thugs, but ask for advice on how to counter a guy throwing a spinning hook kick at you...at this point, I can tell that they're more worried about beating their fellow martial artists in the dojo than fending off a mugger or rapist.

[Power]

If you are talking about trapping in terms of Pak Sao (which is what most people think when they hear 'trapping') then we do not place great emphasis on it...

But we believe that trapping is a range, and that it ties into the clinch range and all of the tools that enter into this area. Once you enter trapping range, then this is where the meat and potatoes of stand up combat should come into play...

I think that that training in Wing Chun style trapping has it's place however. We train it for sensitivity, reflex training, coordination, and otherwise fun...

Chad

[PentjackSilat]

Ya, we do.

[gungfuhero]

As long as people block/parry punches, there will be a place for trapping. The way we train it isn't "trapping OR clinching" but rather "trapping AND clinching." Imagine building a house and somebody says "you can either use a drill or a hammer," pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

[Jari]

Re: Still Wing Chun Trapping?

I've heard it a couple of times, "WC trapping is useless, because with a skilled opponent there's nothing to trap". This argument shows total lack of understanding of the WC trapping idea. You are not supposed to "find something to trap at any cost". The popular WC trapping slogan goes "Keep what comes, accompany what goes, free hands charge straight!". If you understand that, then you know that you only trap when something trappable is given to you, otherwise you blast through ("free hands charge straight"). It is a mistake to try and trap something when there's nothing to trap and you should be charging ahead.

[PentjackSilat]

Another myth of trapping is that you can't trap a boxer. This is untrue. I have trapped Olympic Boxers. I know I am going to get a lot of heat about this. So, bring it on. But know this. Those are words. I have acted. And my actions are louder than words. And if you've tried and failed, maybe it isn't the trapping that isn't any good?

[moe_eubleck]

Personally ,I dont think anything is useless or obsolete in combat as long as you know how to improvise and make it work in a real fight. Like anything , what you get is what you put into it. If you want to become a proficient trapper and you have the time to devote to doing so, than more power to you. As long as you are training realistically its all good.
But I think the main problem with trapping in the classical sense is the training. I spent years training in wing chun. Problem is- I was only training AGAINST wing- chun.
Let me ask you this: in a street fight is your opponent really going to up and fall into a wing chun stance , and connect his arms to yours so you can start chi-soain away? Will he even bother trying to box? Or Is he gonna pick up the nearest barstool and smack you with it????????? I would use the barstool myself. Especially if you got into some fancy kung fooey lookin stance. LOL. Just how are you gonna trap a barstool anyways? I just never trained for that in wing chun.
My point is, its all in the training. Trap,sweep, grapple, bite or lick if you will. But if you can't make it work when it counts, then throw it away! And if you can than more power to ya!! In fact, show ME how to do it!!!

[sikal]

Originally posted by moe_eubleck

My point is, its all in the training. Trap,sweep, grapple, bite or lick if you will. But if you can't make it work when it counts, then throw it away! And if you can than more power to ya!! In fact, show ME how to do it!!!

Excellent point and I agree completely

Except your last sentence (I get the impression you were being flippant ... but that sentence took me on a bit of a tangent :-)

I think one of the problems sometimes is that people see someone else do something and then they expect that person to be able to teach them. The fact is that sometimes they'll just never be able to pull it off due to physical characteristics.

I'm not specifically referring to trapping here (as I said, my brain to a tangent). I could train in basketball with Michael Jordan for a decade and never have his hang time because I don't have his physical attributes. I'm sure my game would improve (it can't get much worse, that's for sure :-)

So, just because someone else can make a given thing work doesn't mean I can or that they can teach me to make it work. It may just be that my attributes (physical and mental) aren't geared toward applying that thing.

My instructor is 5'8" 140 lbs. I'm 5'8" 250 lbs. There will *always* be things that he can do that I can't dream of doing ... and vice versa. The key to being a good instructor is being able to help the student find what he/she *is* capable of ... teach them to find and use their own strengths and avoid getting in trouble from their weaknesses (and, IMHO, what JKD is all about anyway ... but I think this statement is applicable regardless of art/system/style).

Like I said, major digression from the original topic (that's what I get for typing a post right after I wake up) ... but I think it's a valid point.

Mike

[moe_eubleck]

Actually I wasnt being sarcastic. I really would like to learn to trap a boxer. But you are right. I may not even be able to apply them. My arms are quite long and gangly. They may not have been made for trapping. But Ill try anyting once.
But geez! Olympic boxers eh? You do Bruce Lee much justice.

akk..how do you even do that thumbs up symbol?
I digress too. What was the original topic?

[PentjackSilat]

Trapping boxers is actually very simple once you throw away the confines of traditional trapping, and embrace the object of trapping. The object of trapping is to create a temporary opening to hit. Boxers rely a lot on slipping to defend, but when they hit you, you can use the principles of Capture In Flight, 4 Corner Parrying, and the Stop Hit. When their guard is up and covering their face, just Pak their arm. They don't need to extend it to have it trapped. Another one that works really well is, as in the above example, when their arms are up and guarding their face put both your hands outside their hands; then double Jut Sao, and Loi Pak Da either side you want. This is best used when you two are in-fighting. Bong Sao to Lop Da Qua Choi works really well off of their cross. For South Paws, I Wam Pak Da their jabs all day and hit them every time.
Their are many more things that I do. But in order for you to find what works for you, you need to experiment. So get in there and try to pull off whatever you can. And remember, real trapping is not as tight as it is in class. It's a lot looser. The most important thing to remember, and the one that is usually ignored, is that you are not traping them to trap them. You are trapping them to hit them. As a matter of fact, it doesn't matter one bit if you trap their limbs. It matters that you create an opening where you can hit them. If the opening is there hit them. If it isn't, only trap their limbs to the point where the opening is there and hit hit hit.

[sikal]

Originally posted by moe_eubleck
Actually I wasnt being sarcastic. I really would like to learn to trap a boxer. But you are right. I may not even be able to apply them. My arms are quite long and gangly. They may not have been made for trapping. But Ill try anyting once.
But geez! Olympic boxers eh? You do Bruce Lee much justice.

akk..how do you even do that thumbs up symbol?
I digress too. What was the original topic?

Hi. I don't know if it'll help or not ... but you may at least find it interesting (hopefully :-)

Here's an article I wrote on "Applied Trap Hands." It's not really a technique article (though there are some techniques discussed for illustrative purposes). It's more an article on my perception of the underlying principles of trapping.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=40

Mike

[PentjackSilat]

Well written article

[moe_eubleck]

Wow! That was a very well thought out article, thank you for that ! Conceptually speaking it helped me alot.
I suppose now that I think about it, i have pulled off a few traps. But only while my opponnent parries a certain way, can I use his block to bridge into a trap/strike.
It works well, but I can never do it twice to the same sparring partner. That of course must tell you much about the extent of my trapping skills.

[sikal]

Originally posted by moe_eubleck
Wow! That was a very well thought out article, thank you for that ! Conceptually speaking it helped me alot.

Thanks, I appreciate your comments (you and PentjakSilat)

Hey Moe ("nyuck, nyuck, nyuck" ... couldn't resist) ... have you ever had any exposure to Filipino Hubad Lubad?

It's analogous to WC's Chi Sao (different perspective, but builds many of the same attributes).

I'd suggest maybe trying to find someone who knows it pretty well to work it with you. Seeing the same principles from a different perspective may open some doors for you. I know it did for me. I've never studied WC but I've had some exposure to it. And while my understanding of trapping really has its roots in Hubad Lubad, what little exposure to Chi Sao that I've had opened some doors for me.

Mike